O2 iPhone issues, and results from Exec Relations

[ferret1979_1]

After talking with Ben and Hands0n; on twitter, I thought I would post about my issues with O2.

I have 3 O2 lines (1* 24 month iPhone, 1* iPhone simplicity, 1* BlackBerry simplicity) and O2 home phone and Broadband.

I originally joined O2 for the iPhone, as I guess many people did.

I get very good 2G coverage, and at the moment in my flat getting 5 bars of 3G. Coverage checker shows its 3G 900 & 1800.

The problem I have been having is with iMessage, and push notifications on the iPhone.

Basically iMessage's get lost, take hours to arrive, and push notifications are often 10 or 15 mins delayed.

I've got a spare iPhone also, and when that has another operators sim in it, the notifications are coming through spot on.

I've spent many hours on the phone with Apple exec relations and with a senior applecare advisor, and as the problem is specific to the sim and not the handset, they have concluded, that its a carrier issue.

I was already in discussions with O2's CEO's office, over the dire sale of the 24 month contract, and I've been talking to them for months about this push issue.

The lady who is assigned to my case only works Wed - Fri 9:30 until 15:30, so updates are few and far between, which is starting to annoy me.

After a lot of chasing and insistence on my part, they have admitted that, there is an issue with push notifications and iMessage for a few of its customers.

Thats as far as its got, and that was nearly 3 weeks ago.

No update, no resolution, no offer of a line rental discount.

This week I got a bit of a bee in my bonnet, and spoke to another chap in the same office, who was meant to be chasing things, but all he has done is talk a lot, and not get any results.

At one point the advice was iMessage doesn't work well for us, we suggest you turn it off!! Not a suitable solution for me, as I have friends overseas, and use Messages for Mac.

The latest theory is it could be congestion in my area, but that said, I am getting usable speeds to browse and use twitter on the phone.

I've asked for a boost box, but this only feels like a bodge solution, as in essence it will be using my broadband to provide coverage to my mobile.

In the past I've toyed with three, but their CS is appalling, and indoor coverage is poor.

For me, when I'm out and about coverage either 2g or 3g is important, as I am partly disabled, and may need to phone someone for help etc. Data is secondary, and I think this is the reason I have stayed with O2.

This week I got a Full Monty sim from T-Mobile, and indoor signal strength has been OK, in my flat I've got 4 bars, 2 to 3 at my parents on 3G.

Whilst driving over to Battle from Lewes, I had 3G nearly all the time, and was able to catch up on my tweets (Father was driving).

I certainly had 3G coverage in places O2 didn't.

My dilemma now is to see if O2 can provide a solution, and whether I actually want to port my main number into t-mobile and suffer possible poorer signal quality indoors.

I'd be interested to hear what you guys think.

Thanks for reading.

Ferret1979_1

[Hands0n]

I think the indoor signal issue is bloated beyond reasonable.

Yes of course, 2100MHz and 1800MHz has more trouble penetrating solid objects such as buildings, forests and even large expanses of water. But the reality is that the signal actually will reach a lot of areas that the lower MHz do also, albeit with a weaker strength where it does penetrate. Always the risk that the signal will not reach - but then in Bluewater, for example, the Vodafone signal (2G and 3G) is poorly available whereas the Three signal is ever present and of medium to high strength. So what does that say for the higher frequency-locked Three?

I think the true answer is the same advice that I tend to give to anyone who'll listen. That is to test the various MNOs in the areas that you typically live, work and play, before making a firm decision. They all have their weaknesses, as you have already found out with regard to O2.

[Ben]

Thanks so much for writing this up, ferret1979_1.

What are the circumstances when iMessages/Push Notifications get lost? WiFi/2G/3G? Doesn't matter? If it's a SIM/O2 issue then in Airplane Mode with WiFi on it should all work perfectly. If it doesn't, there could be a problem with the router/firewall.

[ferret1979_1]

Thanks so much for writing this up, ferret1979_1.

What are the circumstances when iMessages/Push Notifications get lost? WiFi/2G/3G? Doesn't matter? If it's a SIM/O2 issue then in Airplane Mode with WiFi on it should all work perfectly. If it doesn't, there could be a problem with the router/firewall.

Hi Ben

I am mainly on 3G with WiFi, I've checked with just 3G, problem still exists.

I tried briefly with just 2G, and all seemed to be fine, but this maybe a red herring, as its an intermittent problem, and could've just been having a good spell.

I've tried in AirPlane mode with WiFi on, works fine, as expected.

Tried with 3G on & Cellular Data off, but WiFi connected, again works fine.

Everything points to a carrier issue.

I've been trying for over 2 hours to get hold of Exec Relations today, first off I'm told my contact is at lunch, then I am told that he is on a call, but will call me shortly.

I've just called again, and been told he is busy with another customer at present, and will call me before he goes home today.

I think O2 view it as, "not much of a problem" we won't do much about it.

I don't know what else I can do, I am already dealing with Exec Relations, there isn't anyone I can escalate too, as they act on behalf of the CEO. Does anyone have any ideas?

I'm still paying for the data bolt on; on both my iPhone lines, but not getting the full service.

[Ben]

It's strange that the issue happens with 3G/data on but also WiFi on. I had assumed that in this situation the cellular data connectivity would be redundant and the iPhone would use WiFi. Perhaps that's not the case.

I've noticed my push messages are a little slow today. I've also noticed that O2 is slower than Vodafone was to establish a data connection, so perhaps it's keeping handsets off the data network more aggressively in order to preserve capacity. This could cause delays.

Are you using the default iPhone internet settings (idata)? You could try APN mobile.o2.co.uk and username bypass (assume password is blank).

If, as is often the case with this sort of issue, the fault does lie with a peculiarity of how O2 operate their network, what is it realistically that you'd like to get as the outcome? I'd imagine your best hope is early termination and porting out to another network, if you really can't live with it as-is.

[Wilt]

I would have thought the iPhone would drop to 3G with the screen off in order to save battery - this is the default behaviour on both Android and WP7. So if there were an issue with O2 you would still see it when using wifi unless you sat with the screen on.

Since data seems fine when browsing the web etc. I'm not convinced that it's 100% O2s fault - perhaps an issue with the link between O2 and Apple. Or perhaps an issue with the servers used to push notifications to O2 users - although having no idea how the Apple system is architected this is just guesswork.

[Hands0n]

@ferret1979_1 - Have you re-tried with the 2G cellular data on just to prove out whether or not it is strictly a 3G issue? To work through this you need a carefully constructed series of "control" tests. These may require a bit of time to work through, but will return more empirical results that will be difficult to dispute.

I'd also suggest repeating the controlled tests with another smartphone, possibly identical to the one you have (is it iPhone?) if that is at all possible. That is to eliminate the specific handset itself.

However, with all that you've presented so far it really does look like an O2 carrier issue. It could simply be that the network's own latency is causing the Apple iMessage and Push protocols to time out. They both use Apple's "Apple Push Notification Service" (APNS) which is why you're seeing it on those two services. It may all depend upon how latency intolerant they are across a carrier's 3G/2G network.

If you want to read up on APNS the Apple documentation is here: http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/NetworkingInternet/Conceptual/RemoteNotificationsPG/ApplePushService/ApplePushService.html

[hecatae]

Ferret1979_1 has confirmed on twitter that he only has this issue with his Vodafone number that was ported into O2, the temporary number he had assigned did not have this issue.

Throws up a possible MNP problem from Vodafone as the originating network, anyone good on MNP and message forwarding responsibilities?

[Hands0n]

But surely the mobile data does not "trombone" via the original MNO? Or does it? Bizarre if that is the case as it makes no sense in IP network terms. But if it does, then given Vodafone's own network latencies (horrendous) and packet loss, it is not entirely surprising with a ported service.

[ferret1979_1]

It's strange that the issue happens with 3G/data on but also WiFi on. I had assumed that in this situation the cellular data connectivity would be redundant and the iPhone would use WiFi. Perhaps that's not the case.

I've noticed my push messages are a little slow today. I've also noticed that O2 is slower than Vodafone was to establish a data connection, so perhaps it's keeping handsets off the data network more aggressively in order to preserve capacity. This could cause delays.

Are you using the default iPhone internet settings (idata)? You could try APN mobile.o2.co.uk and username bypass (assume password is blank).

If, as is often the case with this sort of issue, the fault does lie with a peculiarity of how O2 operate their network, what is it realistically that you'd like to get as the outcome? I'd imagine your best hope is early termination and porting out to another network, if you really can't live with it as-is.

I am using the default APN idata.co.uk, I did try using mobile.o2.co.uk as well, but didn't seem to make any difference.

In an ideal world I would like it to work on O2, as I like the carrier. I like the fact, that you don't get charged if you go over your data allowance.

I like the fact that in theory it has better signal penetration because it runs at the lower frequencies, and the introduction of 3G 900 is only a good thing.

I'm testing a T-Mobile Sim, and the signal does drop indoors on that, and being able to make a call, is more important, than being able to use data to me. (slightly disabled, so may need to call people when inside large places, like shopping centres etc).

If the only solution was termination, I could look at Vodafone, but the pricing around data worries me, incase a rogue app causes issues, but would prefer them over T-Mobile I think, because of the signal issue.

@Wilt,

I'm thinking similar things to you, that it could be an issue between O2 and Apple, but O2 have confirmed it as an issue for a few customers.

Its not a handset issue, as I've tried in several iPhone (its been replaced for another reason), and I have a second 4S also, and the problems follow the sim.

@Hands0n

I've just turned my iPhone onto 2G only, I will see how over the next day or so this works. I can then try the sim in my second 4S to prove this.

As Hecatae has said, I do wonder if its because of the number originating on Vodafone. I don't even know what MNP is?

Do Vodafone still play a part in me being able to make and receive calls?

If they do, how come the number and push services worked fine when I moved the number to 3 for a while?

Could it be a problem between O2 & Vodafone? Is it a fixable problem?

If it is an MNP issue, would the only solutions be either to get a new number on O2, or port back to Vodafone?

My line is simplicity 30 day, so porting isn't an issue, but my Mum's line is in my name, and that is in commitment.

Her number came from another network, but I can't be 100% its Vodafone.

If it is any of these issues, who are the people at O2 to speak to about them?

The guys in Executive Relations, have no idea about network technology.

[Ben]

MNP (Mobile Number Portability) is when a number is taken from the network it was originally assigned to and attached to a different network.

Previously, any mobile number could be routed to based on its prefix alone. The prefixes are allocated to the networks by the regulator.

When a call or message is sent to a number that is ported, the original Home Location Register forwards the request on to the new network. The Home Location Register of the new network then responds, allowing the call or message to be directly terminated to the number on that network. So the original network isn't actually responsible for handling any of the data, i.e. it can't interfere with it, it just forwards on the initial request to allow the connection to be made.

As far as I am aware, push messages work by the operation of a persistent data connection. Therefore I don't see how MNP could possibly affect it. Also, that connection would be directly between the handset and Apple, so it's not like the push notifications are going 'via' O2's servers.

What could be a problem is if O2's network is somehow interrupting this persistent data connection. Perhaps Apple thinks the connection is open, but actually O2 has closed it at the handset end. Could be specific to 3G.

Just my theories!

Edit: re: 'via' O2's servers. Exception: O2 could potentially have equipment from Apple that acts as a cache for push messages. Very hard to theorise how that could be involved in any issue, though, without knowing exactly how the push infrastructure all fits together.

[hecatae]

iMessage relies on checking the sms status though yes, so if the HLR from the MNP is checking the original Vodafone network's SMS centre, would that cause an issue?

alternatively the temp number Ferret1979 had before his number was ported worked fine, so if those details have not been fully cleared by o2 at their HLR with regards to the IMSI, would that cause a problem?

Throwing both ideas out there.

[Ben]

How does iMessage interact with the 'sms status'? AFAIK, the handset queries Apple to see if the recipient is available for iMessage. If it isn't, the handset sends as SMS. If that's the case there would be no interaction between iMessage and conventional SMS infrastructure.

[ferret1979_1]

I've had a 50 minute chat with O2 again today.

They can't see the link between porting in and MNP. But have agreed to send me a PAYG sim, and load £10 onto it, to test this theory.

If this theory does work, the only solution I can see is, if O2 change my number, which will be a pain.

They have also said that the account looks fine, but maybe cancel down the account, and create it again, but I've had this done before, and its not worked.

They have suggested trying a replacement sim, I am a little skeptical that this will help.

Other wise they are saying it could be congestion on the local mast, and if it is, there isn't a lot I can have done about it.

They have agreed to give me a months line rental credit, and won't let the 24 month contract out of commitment, as they say in the T&C's that coverage isn't 100% guaranteed.

I'm still on 2G, but haven't used twitter or iMessage that much since switching off 2G. (always the way).

[Hands0n]

So the only thing I can think of as to how O2 could be intruding on this whole issue is with regard to the APN that the phone is set to. If O2 are routing everything through some proxy then that could be causing issues with keepalives or whatever where iMessage is concerned. The difficulty is going to be actually proving that. Some kind of packet trace is required across the 3G - but on an iPhone that is going to be impossible as the OS will not allow such an app to be developed/used.

[DBMandrake]

It's strange that the issue happens with 3G/data on but also WiFi on. I had assumed that in this situation the cellular data connectivity would be redundant and the iPhone would use WiFi. Perhaps that's not the case.

I think I've described this in other threads, but even when Wifi is enabled and connected with the phone awake the push notification connections are still kept active over the 3G connection.

This is to prevent the data usage and battery drain of constantly breaking and re-establishing the push notification connections every time the Wifi goes on and off as the phone wakes and sleeps. Better to just leave a permanent connection on 3G all the time (which has very low standby power) and just send the actual message payload (iMessage, email etc) over Wifi IF Wifi is already active at the time. Of course this means delays/problems with the 3G data connection will cause delays in push notifications even if you're on Wifi.

The only way to get the push notifications to work over Wifi is to disable cellular data or use airplane mode with Wifi enabled - then the push notification connection will shift itself to Wifi, and stay there until the next time Wifi is disabled while cellular data is enabled, at which time it will shift back to 3G and stay there once again.

[ferret1979_1]

I've had a replacement sim from O2, and I thought that it had helped, as yesterday evening iMessage and push was working fine, but it hasn't done today, and thats just typical of the problem. Can appear to be working, then stops again.

I did send O2 an email yesterday asking what the next step was if this all failed to work, and I even called (but he was away on a break). He never returned the call or email.

I think they are just fed up with the issue, and hope I will go away, and to be honest I might just jump ship to T-Mobile with my simplicity, its more of an issue for my mother, (contract in my name), but tied in for 24 months (about 18 remaining).

[ferret1979_1]

I finally got a reply to my email on Monday.

But I'd got fed up by then, and gave my PAC to T-Mobile.

I successfully ported to T-Mobile this morning.

I have now put a PAYG sim in my spare iPhone, (the sim was loaded with 500mb data and £6.00 credit by O2).

Its funny, but twitter notifications, and iMessage's are coming in at exactly the same time on O2 and T-Mobile.

I wonder if there is any truth in the fact that my number has a problem, as it was ported, if it is, I don't know how I can convince O2 that is the problem, and get them to fix it.

I can see my only solution if I want to stick with O2 is to change my number to one they provide.

[Ben]

If it is a number related issue, whether related to porting (mhmm) or not, it's unlikely it'll ever get fixed. Glad you're in a better situation at the moment, though!

[hecatae]

so vodafone number ported to o2 problems

but vodafone number ported to t-mobile, no problems...

at a loss to explain

[ferret1979_1]

so vodafone number ported to o2 problems

but vodafone number ported to t-mobile, no problems...

at a loss to explain

Yup thats pretty much it, but it went through O2 before it went to T-Mobile.

I actually ported back to O2, as I realised indoor coverage was more important than push notifications.

It doesn't matter to me that indoor coverage is mostly 2G, I can still make a call.

I am probably the typical Customer O2 wants, as I don't actually use data that much out and about, (I have anxiety issues, and worry about being mugged for me phone).

I did find myself with the T-Mobile sim, just streaming something for the sake of it, as I could.

Data speeds on both O2 and T-Mobile are about the same at home, not really bothered with too many tests out and about.

I did manage to test yesterday though, that I still have push issues away from my home postcode.

I was 2 hours away in the New Forest, and had 3G, but push notifications where still slow.

I would hear the notification go off on my BlackBerry, check on my iPhone, after a refresh of twitter message was there.

Next time I look at the iPhone 10 or so mins later, the notification had appeared, even though I had read it in the app.

Seems like the notification was sent on time, but not received.

[Ben]

Next time I look at the iPhone 10 or so mins later, the notification had appeared, even though I had read it in the app.
I do get this sometimes. I've made my peace with it, for now.

[ferret1979_1]

Maybe it is just me being picky..

Earlier this afternoon, whilst having my snooze, I received around 4 mentions on twitter.

How did I know this? my T-Mobile PAYG sim in my spare iPhone had the notifications, my O2 iPhone, only had the 1 notification, and no further ones have come through.

[ferret1979_1]

When I took out my new sim this week, the guy in the store asked for my BlackBerry number, so he can set me up under the same profile.

Only trouble is he made a mistake, and instead of getting me a new line, he upgraded me... Not what I wanted, and my BlackBerry services dropped out completely.

He hastily made several phone calls, and said that everything would be reset.

By the time I had got home, my BlackBerry had lost all service altogether.

I phoned Exec Relations, and he had activated a new sim, (I do remember him scanning the new micro sim), but had obviously forgotten to put it back to the sim that I had in the phone.

Exec Relations put it back as it should be, but as it swapped to an iPhone plan, had to wait until over night it reverted back.

The annoying thing is, my minutes are now pro rota'd, which isn't fair, as I hadn't initiated the change.

The store guy telling me everything would go back to normal, even my minutes, when I explicitly asked him.

Exec Relations have given me a months line rental, but I would rather not have had the hassle.

Exec Relations are also slow in responding to emails now.

I think for me, its a case of the better the devil you know!!!

[ferret1979_1]

Just spoken with O2 again, as they hadn't replied to the email I sent last week.

Long story short, they can do no more, and won't let the 24 month acc from commitment.

I explained that the PAYG sim sitting exactly next to the PAYM sim works fine, but still not enough, the Network team can't investigate further.

I even said, that the problem was exactly the same in the New Forest, some 2 hours drive from me, but didn't make any difference.

The only way it will be investigated is, if more people complain.

I asked about escalating the problem, as I thought I had read, that you can go to arbitration, but because it was Executive relations, they said thats as far as the complaint can go.

Does anyone know if this is true?

[Hands0n]

It may be worth writing a formal letter to O2, addressed to the CEO, Ronan Dunne, by name (it'll never reach him but that is not important), containing a complete and detailed summary of the problem, what has been discovered and how that discovery was made, covering off the various and numerous conversations that you have had. I would suggest also making perfectly clear early on in the letter what it is you are after and why, including without prejudice.

That will pretty much set the seal on the episode, you're having the final word unless someone at O2 picks it up and decides that it is worth another look in terms of resolving your case by letting you end the long contract early. Its a final shot.

The next step will be to consider going public with the likes of Watchdog or Which? magazine, or something similar. There's an equal chance of that going nowhere at all.

O2 are not breaking any rules or regulations by calling an end to their investigation. Even though it is a bit mean spirited given your circumstances. They could do earn themselves some good will otherwise.

[ferret1979_1]

Thanks for the tips, I did write to Ronan Dunne last week, as I didn't think I would get any further with the Executive Relations.

I will give that another week, then write a final one stating that; they've concluded everything they can do.

I did even try tweeting him, but to no avail.

[Ben]

If you've put the 'formal' complaint in writing it would be prudent to give it a good eight weeks to be dealt with by O2. Hopefully you obtained proof of postage. I would advise against following it up with any additional letters.

If you want out of the contract and still don't have a resolution after this time try this: http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/tell-us/telecoms/adr/

[ferret1979_1]

Just to add another issue, the new contract I took for porting back in, has a payment date of 01.01.2070 I don't know if this means O2 are offering free usage?? I guess not.

Its taken 2 days to get answers from O2 twitter, who suggested talking to an online rep.

Just spoken to a Guru, who had difficulty understanding, then proceeded to tell me, that I had used all my allowance.

How this is related to the issue I don't know. Also its totally incorrect.

Looks like I am going to have to give them a call!!

[ferret1979_1]

I think I may have found out what was causing the issue.

I saw a tweet from @marcflores, that mentioned something about having message for Mac beta installed.

I've uninstalled this from both of my Macs, and since, twitter push seems much more reliable, and iMessage also. Although I haven't used iMessage all that much.

Seems strange how this issue wasn't present on other networks though.

Time will tell if all is working correctly.

[Ben]

I had some problems yesterday for the first time since resetting the network settings. Delayed and missing push notifications, and iMessages arriving later as SMS also.

Today it seems to have been fine again. I'd rather not reset the network settings again as I have to reconfigure the VPN, but it's a last resort and did give me weeks of solid push.

Was never an issue on Vodafone, though, so I'm not sure what that's all about. That said, Facebook notifications were always hit and miss... can't win.