Motorola Attrix - Am I the only one that doesn't get it ?

[miffed]

Don't get me wrong , I am all for nice powerful Android devices , and I do think Moto are making ground towards redemption .....

....But ....

I really don't get all the fuss about Docking this Moto in a proprietry "laptop" ?

Surely if you are going to carry the "laptop" dock , then you may as well carry a full power laptop & just sync your stuff with it ? ...Or do they think people will buy the Attrix as their only computer ?
All seems a bit pointless to me ?

[Hands0n]

Motorola have always been a bit unconventional, a bit unusual. They have scored some massive successes, such as the RAZR. And equally they have scored some huge failures (almost everything else). So the Attrix will ultimately fit one of those two categories.

Isn't this a bit like the new Asus Pad with docking mobile phone? What happens when the phone goes pop? Chuck the pad away, it would seem. That doesn't work for me.

[Ben]

Such an awkward implementation, docking the phone behind the 'laptop' like that. Whyyyy!

I can't imagine this concoction setting anyone's hair alight tbh.

[3GScottishUser]

I can see this device being popular with business folks. It's something unique and as an idea it might not be perfect but its a concept that can be refined.

I expect to see a few more hybrid devices in time. Acer has a tablet/laptop which could work well with the addition of a 3G/LTE modem perhaps?

Having recently bought a tablet and not being a train or bus user I find the concept very limited. Call me old fashioned but I just find a laptop with a proper keyboard so much easier. There is something uncomfortable about tablets for anything other than surfing the net and that gets complicated when you have to start to input information (even with a Bluetooth keyboard which kind of defeats the whole purpose as you cant hold two things at the same time!)

[hecatae]

the hdmi dock for connecting to a tv with keyboard and mouse is more functional.

[Ben]

Having recently bought a tablet and not being a train or bus user I find the concept very limited. Call me old fashioned but I just find a laptop with a proper keyboard so much easier. There is something uncomfortable about tablets for anything other than surfing the net and that gets complicated when you have to start to input information (even with a Bluetooth keyboard which kind of defeats the whole purpose as you cant hold two things at the same time!)
Not being funny, but that really does depend on the tablet, and there's only one tablet that has practically the entire market right now and with good reason.

[3GScottishUser]

Not being funny, but that really does depend on the tablet, and there's only one tablet that has practically the entire market right now and with good reason.

I'm not sure if thats now the case. Others have been shifting a lot of boxes out of mainstream High Street retailers so a neighbour of mine tells me who manages a local Currys superstore.

A year ago Apple probably had most of the market to themselves but in recent months I suspect others may now be selling significant numbers too.

Not sure that Apple is the only game in town now and there are some good reasons why Android devices are now proving popular. I can't figure out how the generic form factor can be so different and was making the point about all tablets functionality. They are attractive as a proposition but all (regardless of make) have limitations which make them far less practical than a laptop.

Someone needs to explain to me what the killer applications and functionality is of the tablet......

[Ben]

I don't carry a laptop anymore. That's the killer app for me.

Laptops suck in the car, on trains, on planes. They're bulkier, and have shorter battery life. An iPad is the ultimate ultraportable.

There's so much more to it than that, though. It's so much more social to look at pictures and videos on a tablet than a phone, maps are so much more useful on a bigger screen, reading books is an absolute pleasure. Then there's browsing the web, which just feels so much more natural on a touch-screen tablet than a laptop - the whole aspect of being able to interact with websites via touch, it's magic :)

[3GScottishUser]

I don't carry a laptop anymore. That's the killer app for me.

Laptops suck in the car, on trains, on planes. They're bulkier, and have shorter battery life. An iPad is the ultimate ultraportable.

There's so much more to it than that, though. It's so much more social to look at pictures and videos on a tablet than a phone, maps are so much more useful on a bigger screen, reading books is an absolute pleasure. Then there's browsing the web, which just feels so much more natural on a touch-screen tablet than a laptop - the whole aspect of being able to interact with websites via touch, it's magic :)

It's not too easy getting pictures from a digital camera let alone an HD video camera onto an iPad. I doubt if any tablet on the market could edit or do much with HD video because of their limited spec.

For snaps taken with a cameraphone and uploaded to a website, tablets might be OK. OK for web browsing for sure, not sold on using them as ebook readers as the Kindle screen is great outdoors form what I have seen where tablets are not so clear.

The tablet is ideal perhaps for buses and trains, maybe aircraft too but the limitations are the lack of a keyboard and in the case of the iPad lack of connectivity facilities. One thing I enjoy is having lots of music on my 16GB SD card. I can use it in my MP3 player or just pop it into a tablet or laptop. It's quick and easy and not reliant on 3G, Wifi and does not take up internal storage on the device. Just one example of the type of flexibility I enjoy. I am sure web based solutions are available but they are not always accessable (not on most planes for example and not for free on many trains or ferrys).

The tablet is a good portable web browser but looking at the newest laptops, which are shrinking, the difference in flexibility may be the key to the tablet's success. I have not seen many of my colleagues ditching laptops for tablets and any that have them seem to use both. The serious stuff like work documents etc get done on the laptop and the social browsing on the tablet. But I have to say the number I have seen used in my workplace I can count on the fingers of one hand.

[Hands0n]

Regardless of the fact that Apple can do nothing right :D The iPad global sales are a testimony to the success of the device.

Android tablets are emerging, they are only really making any sense at all with the advent of Android 3.0 Honeycomb, and that is somewhat embryonic in terms of its maturity. There remains quite a way to go for the OS to be able to go toe to toe with iOS 4, let alone iOS 5. I know because I have an iPad and an Android (Asus Eee Pad Transformer) in my possession and am able to make direct comparisons between the two.

Maturity of apps in Android 3.0 is nonexistent. There are slowly emerging 3.0 specific apps, and very nice they are too. But you can count these on the digits of not more than two human bodies!. Come back in a year's time and the picture vis a vis quantity and quality of Android 3.x apps will be different. But now, today, that is not the case.

Turning to the form factor, it would be a serious mistake to underestimate tablets as capable and effective computing devices. One only has to look at the iWork apps that exist on the iPad to see that it is entirely feasible to commit to a tablet in lieu of a laptop. With little compromise, if any, I have been able to use the iWork apps to produce content that is presentable at my firm. In fact, very many people at work are using iPads - and today I saw my first Motorola Xoom pressed into business use. They have all set down their company HP laptops in favour of these tablet devices, without any constraint on their ability to work.

How is this even possible? Well, for a start iOs and Android tablets have full support for Exchange Mail which sorts out Email, Contacts and Calendar at a stroke. They all feature quite capable web browsers, more so as firms turn their back on Microsoft IIS and move to more generic and global standard web services. There is not a single corporate service in my firm that is not accessible via a tablet device.

What is all this about iPad lack of connectivity? The removable SD card argument is a divisive troll, Apple have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they are completely superfluous for the sake of carrying media around. iOS 5 will take that to a completely different level, particularly when coupled with iCloud services. Physical connectivity is catered for completely by the use of "dongles" for VGA, DVI and HDMI. Also for the attachment of Cameras and other devices. Sure, its not built in, but then nor is it on a lot of the current "competition".

But despite any opinion the fact is that the tablet is here to stay. Once again Apple have defined a paradigm that others tried and failed with, turning it into a success story that others are now copying. History will rightly record Apple as a great disruptor. And now that they have started yet another ball rolling we will see tablet devices become as ubiquitous and popular as touchscreen smartphones are today. Regardless of market position, and remember this is one single company trading against a global host of others, Apple's position in history is secured. Their future, unless they do something completely stupid, is assured. There are plenty of means to afford these devices, as we have already seen with the iPhone itself - accessible for zero deposit and less than a month's cost of cigarettes for the average smoker. Healthier too.

[Ben]

It's not too easy getting pictures from a digital camera let alone an HD video camera onto an iPad. I doubt if any tablet on the market could edit or do much with HD video because of their limited spec.
Eh? All my pictures and videos from my iPhone, and my Canon 550D, are automatically sync'd to my iPad. What's hard about that? If you use the SD card dongle, you just stick the SD card in and the iPad grabs all the photos, even in RAW format.

Apple sell the iMovie video editing app, probably the most advanced mobile video editing suite on the market.

Photo management in Windows is perhaps a little shoddier, but all Macs come with iPhoto, so there's nothing to it. AFAIK on Windows all you have to do is have your stuff in the My Photos folder.

---

The Attrix may be an 'interesting' idea, but I can guarantee that it'll be confined to the niche of the niches. The PlayBook concept of smartphone and tablet integration is more promising, and to be honest that's a long shot.

[3GScottishUser]

Hold on. You need a decent quad core cpu to edit and render 1080p AVCHD video and at least 3GB of RAM. I dont know of a tablet with that sort of spec yet. Meanwhile how much do you need to spend to get an iPad to read an SD card? Why is there no card slot or a USB at the very least? (I see there is a card reader for the bargain price of £25! That must cost all of 30p to make, if that!) In time the cloud will provide all of the connectivity but for now most devices don't have WiFi connectvity so they need hard wired to transfer data and thats when the tablet task becomes tricky.

I guess if you only want mobile snaps which you can easiy upload the restricted tablets are OK but take a picture or video with a proper camera and you need a proper computer or an expensive additiional acccessory.

Posted this via my tablet and it took a good deal longer than if I had used my PC but I suppose it has some convienience when lying in bed!

[Hands0n]

Hold on. You need a decent quad core cpu to edit and render 1080p AVCHD video and at least 3GB of RAM.

Good heavens! No one seems to have told Apple that.

It is quite possible to edit video on an iPhone or iPad. There are too many examples to cite, but just a few moments with Google brought up a music video shot and edited entirely in an iPhone 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf6msAmOSII I have see very much worse shot on so-called professional gear.

People are even winning awards for movies shot entirely on iPhones - http://www.hancinema.net/movie-made-on-iphone-bags-berlin-film-award-27991.html

[3GScottishUser]

Good heavens! No one seems to have told Apple that.

It is quite possible to edit video on an iPhone or iPad. There are too many examples to cite, but just a few moments with Google brought up a music video shot and edited entirely in an iPhone 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf6msAmOSII I have see very much worse shot on so-called professional gear.

People are even winning awards for movies shot entirely on iPhones - http://www.hancinema.net/movie-made-on-iphone-bags-berlin-film-award-27991.html

Not bad but the sound and pictures are just a little bit out of sync!

The iPhone and others can deal with 720p but when you capture 1080p with a proper camcorder there is no current phone or tablet that can cope with it. Panasonic publish minimum system requirements of a quad core CPU running at 2GHz or more plus 3GB of DDR2 as the least that will allow viewing without frame dropping for 1080p video editing. So phones and tablets have a fair distance to travel to get to that sort of spec. 720p is fine though for most folks and will probably be sufficient for hybrid devices like phones and tablets for some time to come.

[Ben]

Posted this via my tablet and it took a good deal longer than if I had used my PC but I suppose it has some convienience when lying in bed!
At risk of completely derailing this thread... writing your post on an iPad wouldn't have taken a good deal longer than your PC. My iPad typing speed in landscape is about 90%. It's amazing what difference the best touchscreen and software on the market make to practical usability.

[3GScottishUser]

At risk of completely derailing this thread... writing your post on an iPad wouldn't have taken a good deal longer than your PC. My iPad typing speed in landscape is about 90%. It's amazing what difference the best touchscreen and software on the market make to practical usability.

Not sure it would as I just can't get into the glass feel! The Android devices have word recognition etc which can make things faster but as I don't use SMS much and spend most of my time at a traditional keyboard so I suspect it will take some time to become as quick with a tablet of any type. Perhaps practice will improve my typing speed on a tablet.... have to see!

[miffed]

My experience of Tablets is that the iPad is absolutely streets ahead of any of anything else out there WRT text input and ease of UI use - I can totally understand why pretty much any Android tablet would frustrate - but the whole experience on the iPad makes you forget it is a "virtual" experience , and you feel like you are typing for real (at least thats how it feels for me).
Not sure if is is design , or well implementated multi touch - but the two experiences simply don't compare for me. I think this is another reason that the iPad heads the market.

[3GScottishUser]

Not sure if is is design , or well implementated multi touch - but the two experiences simply don't compare for me. I think this is another reason that the iPad heads the market.

But maybe not for too long as Gingerbread on phones seems to equal and in some respects better the iPhone.

The problem for Apple is that they have to now compete against a world of developers who have a very adaptable and as experience has proved relaible and refinable base OS based on Linux/Unix.

Apple have done good work to establish the current standards but the Android camp are not far behind and being open source will attract more development time which will in turn deliver more user friendly products at more competitive prices, delivering the technology to a far wider audience than a 'lock down' vendor ever could.

[gorilla]

As a user of both an Android phone and an iPad I feel very qualified to respond to this thread.
I love the Android OS and for me it is a better phone than the the iPhone. Yes the iPhone 4 is a very nice bit of kit, but it is lacking in some areas.
The iPad is a very accomplished personal computer with the benefit of being very portable and easy to use. I do all of my photo editing on the iPad. I either use (the expensive) camera connection kit or just email the pics to myself - hardly an effort!

As for the Attrix, I like the concept and can see a future for this type of device. Unfortunately it's not for me and I think it will only ever be a niche Market.

[Hands0n]

But maybe not for too long as Gingerbread on phones seems to equal and in some respects better the iPhone..

I know that it is entirely subjective. However, as a long time (!) user of both, and having the latest iPhone (4) and Google Nexus S I can attest that Android certainly has some way to go to better the iOS 4 system. The jury is out on iOS 5 until it arrives.

Why do I say this? Well, for a start, Android's tendency to jerkiness persists all the way through to Gingerbread. Bear in mind, I am using vanilla Android in the Nexus S - no manufacturer or mobile operator overlays to get in the way. And although Gingerbread is the best version of the official Android it remains a "lesser" OS in terms of overall experience to iOS.

Yes, I know, Android has the fun stuff like Notifications bar (coming soon to iOS 5), and it is a so-called "open operating system", only it isn't, Google still control how much you can do unless you root. So its not quite as open as people cite it to be. And that is important.

I could certainly live without an iOS phone if Android is all there was. But the fact of the matter is that Android does not have the market all to itself. And at the quality end, premium if you like, the iPhone and iOS has the field to itself still.

[miffed]

I think the ultimate testimony to the iPad is the way it is sold

http://threestore.three.co.uk/tablets/

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/laptops-netbooks/ipad-tablets-and-ereaders-889-c.html

http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/?portal=GOOGLE&promo=PPCBRAND&ppc=true


The recurring theme is that retailers simply don't lump the iPad in with all the other cr .. erm , tablets , The retailers obviously see big difference between the iPad and everything else

[gorilla]

However, as a long time (!) user of both, and having the latest iPhone (4) and Google Nexus S I can attest that Android certainly has some way to go to better the iOS 4 system.

You didn't just go there did you? :)
Well, maybe it's the iPad 1 or the iPad 2 (both of which were running the latest version of iOS) but neither of those performs as well as my Android phone in terms of moving between applications, the default browser and twitter. Obviously the tablet offers a better overall user experience (as a consumption device) but apps are prone to regular crashes on iOS and I have to manually close them and restart the iPad regularly. I went several weeks without a reboot on the HTC Desire.

If I add in my experience of iPhone 4 which is "how do you do this?" "Why do I have to download app updates?" my perception of iPhone 4 is not good!
But that's my non technical friends who don't use 1/10th of the features on an iPhone (or probably any other phone for that matter).

Moving along...
Did you see the story about the Apple Genius Bar which stated that 50% of customers (http://onefps.net/post/6496478249/50-percent-of-iphone-owners-dont-backup) had never updated the OS?
This is presumabmly one of the driving forces behind iCloud (not to mention that Android is built on the post-pc philosophy and cutting the cord :cool: )

Anyone would think that I was an Android fanboy, well I am, but I'm also an Apple fanboy; you can be both, right? :confused:

[Ben]

Yeah I saw that story; it's quite impressive that iCloud isn't just some abstract virtual hard drive, but a fully integrated feature of, well, everything Apple by the looks of things! It may have taken Apple too long to cut the cord, but as per usual with Apple the way in which they've cut it has far outdone everything that has gone before.

It's not like they invented the MP3 player. Boy oh boy did they refine it, though.

iOS 5 and iCloud combined address, well, all of the stagnations of iOS as far as I'm concerned. It may be catch-up release in many respects, but again it'll come down to the way in which Apple has implemented the 'missing features' Android had boasted that'll blow us all away.

If I were a hard man I'd tell you no, you bloomin' well can't be a fan of both, make your choice! But I most certainly am not, and it's amusing to watch both sides war in your brain! :D

[miffed]

To be honest I don't think the "Apple fanboy" that many talk about really exists , not in a pure context anyway - Most of the guys I know (myself included ) that totally appreciate the iPhone would 100% drop it in shot if there was "better" device available . there simply isn't !

Personally I am always looking out for such a device and would LOVE to find one

[jokiin]

To be honest I don't think the "Apple fanboy" that many talk about really exists , not in a pure context anyway - Most of the guys I know (myself included ) that totally appreciate the iPhone would 100% drop it in shot if there was "better" device available . there simply isn't !

Personally I am always looking out for such a device and would LOVE to find one

there's some great hardware out there and as much as some people like to knock Apple for their closed system the reality is their product is easier to use and just makes more sense the way they do things, when the workflows of an Android or Win7 phone are as logical as Apple then there might be some alternatives worth looking at

[Ben]

You both make a good point. For the second time recently I've got friends staying with me and every single one of them has an iPhone, but they're not all Mac users and I'm certain that if they thought there was something better on the market then they'd have that instead.

I, personally, am in a bit of a different situation, as I'm quite heavily 'invested' into the Apple ecosystem now. For me that brings benefits that others, with just an iPad for example, don't see... but even I'd like to think that if/when something better comes along I wont be oblivious to it.

After all, you're talking to someone who used to enthuse about Windows, Dell, and Nokia!

[3GScottishUser]

I think the ultimate testimony to the iPad is the way it is sold

http://threestore.three.co.uk/tablets/

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/laptops-netbooks/ipad-tablets-and-ereaders-889-c.html

http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/?portal=GOOGLE&promo=PPCBRAND&ppc=true


The recurring theme is that retailers simply don't lump the iPad in with all the other cr .. erm , tablets , The retailers obviously see big difference between the iPad and everything else

They are not allowed to. They don't put Apple products next to PCs either because Apple insist that their products be given a dedicated display area. This gives them more prominence, makes them look more exclusive and helps to prevent direct feature and price comparison. The only exception to this rule is when Apple products are reduced for clearance then they end up with rest on the sale shelves.

You can see the same strategy used by Bose and other 'top end' brands in most Currys/PC World Superstores. This kind of arrangement can be part of the supply agreement or can be paid for with additional marketing support or increased margin. I think Apple's branding and marketing spend would allow them to argue that the 'solus' display option is justified to make it easy for customers they drive into the stores to quickly identify their products. The last thing Apple wants is for a prospective buyer who has consumed their advertising to see alternatives easily. Apple display areas are usually well away from the competetion and staffed by 'trained Apple specialists' who don't normally encourage comparisons outwith the Apple range. This type of marketing works well and its very costly but delivers huge margins for Apple and guaranteed revenues for their partner retailers. It's the next best thing to having a single brand store.

[jokiin]

or increased margin.

as anyone that sells their products could tell you it's certainly not this, good profit for Apple, not good for the retailer, they're very fortunate to be in this position

[3GScottishUser]

as anyone that sells their products could tell you it's certainly not this, good profit for Apple, not good for the retailer, they're very fortunate to be in this position

Very true. It's a testement to good design, brand exclusiveness and marketing clout, I think Apple have earned their solus position to some extent but would caution that it will only last as long as they can produce products that justify that special treatment. Sony for some years enjoyed a similar status but now have to accept being part of the mainstream product offerings.

I think this thread is now well off topic but its interesting to read others opinions. I am well aware that margins on Apple will be tight for retailers (probably around 20%) and that contributes to ensuring there is little or no discounting, keeping prices high and maintaining Apple's exclusive 'high end' status. Whether that is justified for all of their products is debatable but I'm sure Apple would be foolish to abandon their current strategy for as long as they have their present level of consumer support.

[jokiin]

Very true. It's a testement to good design, brand exclusiveness and marketing clout, I think Apple have earned their solus position to some extent but would caution that it will only last as long as they can produce products that justify that special treatment. Sony for some years enjoyed a similar status but now have to accept being part of the mainstream product offerings.

.

Agree, I think 20 years ago Sony was considered above most mainstream brands, they didn't play the marketing game as well as Apple have though in recent times, Apple really are masters of the game in that respect




I think this thread is now well off topic but its interesting to read others opinions. I am well aware that margins on Apple will be tight for retailers (probably around 20%) and that contributes to ensuring there is little or no discounting, keeping prices high and maintaining Apple's exclusive 'high end' status. Whether that is justified for all of their products is debatable but I'm sure Apple would be foolish to abandon their current strategy for as long as they have their present level of consumer support.

Not sure about your end of the world but here Apple product margin for retailers are typically less than 10%, they rely heavily on selling accessories to try and make up the difference

[3GScottishUser]

Not sure about your end of the world but here Apple product margin for retailers are typically less than 10%, they rely heavily on selling accessories to try and make up the difference

UK retailers generally don't sell anything with less than 20% markup. Big companies like DSG normally insist on 30-35% on branded goods and can make up to 100% on own branded products. Accessories are the icing on the cake with 500-1000% markups!

[jokiin]

UK retailers generally don't sell anything with less than 20% markup. Big companies like DSG normally insist on 30-35% on branded goods and can make up to 100% on own branded products. Accessories are the icing on the cake with 500-1000% markups!

retailers here don't want low margin products either, it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't though, none of them want to not get the sale and the potential accessory sales that go with it so they're in this space, the big winner of course is Apple, they have a product that is in demand and don't have retailers under cutting each other and driving the perceived value of the product down as there is just no room to move, there's very strict rules here about price fixing that stops manufacturers and distributors holding prices up, retailers can sell for whatever they like so you see a constant erosion of prices, great for the consumer but not so great for anyone else

Apple have products that they create demand for so retailers want to sell them to get customers in their door, they charge a premium for the privilege and give the retailer so little floor margin that there is little to no discounting on the product, have to admire what they have been able to do, like I said, they are masters at the game

[3GScottishUser]

Apple have products that they create demand for so retailers want to sell them to get customers in their door, they charge a premium for the privilege and give the retailer so little floor margin that there is little to no discounting on the product, have to admire what they have been able to do, like I said, they are masters at the game

Indeed and that strategy was the very one that Alan Sugar used in the 1980s when he dominated the market with audio products and computers. From 1st hand experience I know that unlike his Apprentices he did not negotiate on price with buyers and offered a low but guaranteed margin to those who distributed the products. His big spend was on advertising and promotion and he argued very successfully that his brand and company would drive business to the retailer, which it did for a while and made Mr Sugar one of the UKs wealthiest businessmen.

So Apple are using a marketing startegy that has been tried and proven. The difficulty for Apple is that in the fast moving world of consumer electronics it is difficult to maintain the 'edge' to demand a premium as Alan Sugar discovered. Not so difficult for BMW, Mercedes and others in different sectors though.

[Hands0n]

An interesting comparison of Apple with BMW and Mercedes. Those two car manufacturers also make equipment that is not particularly advanced or sophisticated. However, it is well built, oozes quality and is supported by an extraordinary supporting ecosystem.

As with these two motor manufacturers, Apple will continue to have absolutely no problems finding a market, even in the emerging nations where such marques are well respected and highly desired.

[hecatae]

watch the advert:

http://www.bitterwallet.com/ipad-still-winning-thanks-to-hopeless-android-ads/45948

verizon dont have a clue on how to sell a tablet

[Ben]

watch the advert:

http://www.bitterwallet.com/ipad-still-winning-thanks-to-hopeless-android-ads/45948

verizon dont have a clue on how to sell a tablet
Ah, yes. Just a little reminder there of how important marketing is!

[Hands0n]

What a classic example of how not to do it. I'm a techie and it bored me rigid!