[Ben]

Apparently, in the airtime agreement, it is specified that only Orange-approved handsets may be used on the Orange network. This only covers Orange handsets retailed by Orange (and its selected partners) using Orange's selection of firmware. While they are not actively enforcing this condition at this time, they will actively refuse to offer any support for (Orange World, Orange custom applications etc) services being used on a SIM-Free handset.

I complained that I incurred data charges for using Orange TV even though the application specifically states that the trial is free for three months. After two weeks, they've thrown the T&C's at me saying I shouldn't be using a handset that is not Orange-approved on their network and that I am in breech of the Terms and Conditions so should not persue the matter further.

Where on earth do the mobops get their elevated sense of self-worth from? Just be a Service Provider!

I'd love to know if other networks impose the same stupid clause. Handsets like the Vertu are only available SIM-Free. Does that mean Vertu customers are not welcome on Orange UK?

[Jon3G]

I was told the same thing when I tried to get support for my 6680 on Orange.

[Ben]

I know they don't support the handsets as such, but I've never had the book thrown at me in that fashion with the specific mention that I'm in breech of my airtime agreement. I was pretty disgusted! The guy was pretty sound though, he basically said it's what he'd been told to say and that my comments would be passed back to his manager... but meh, whatever. Oh I do feel like a valued customer of god knows how many years now :D

[miffed]

If I were you I'd send them a letter apologising and promising to remove my sim free handset from their network immedietely , and probably ask for a settlement figure for the contract
There was absolutely no need to throw the T&C into your face , fairplay if they want to insinuate that your problems are down to lack of Orange firmware , but to get "snappy" with long term customers is a bit suicidal

[Jon3G]

It will be some jumped up Manager who wants a power trip and only one thing in life and thats his dirty mags and his box of tissues

[3GScottishUser]

I can understand where Orange are coming from with this. They offer line 2 and various other enhancements so firmware has to be specially produced for their network in the UK. I dare say they will happily accept the use of non-approved/supplied handsets (just as they will roamers) but with the proviso that you cant expect them to fully support devices and software not specifically written for their applications. The same thing seems to be the case with broadband where ISP's now supply 'authorised' modems and routers so that their support staff can be trained in depth on a limited range of hardware and they can use software solutions to provide automated support.

Not what those who want to control their own service want to hear I know but if you look at it from an operator's perspective it makes a lot of sense and avoids them having to spend valuable support time on queries that affest a very limited number of users.

[Jon3G]

I can understand where Orange are coming from with this. They offer line 2 and various other enhancements so firmware has to be specially produced for their network in the UK. I dare say they will happily accept the use of non-approved/supplied handsets (just as they will roamers) but with the proviso that you cant expect them to fully support devices and software not specifically written for their applications. The same thing seems to be the case with broadband where ISP's now supply 'authorised' modems and routers so that their support staff can be trained in depth on a limited range of hardware and they can use software solutions to provide automated support.

Not what those who want to control their own service want to hear I know but if you look at it from an operator's perspective it makes a lot of sense and avoids them having to spend valuable support time on queries that affest a very limited number of users.


I agree in part, but when the handset is on the network how different can it be. (ok yes line 2, but I am sure line 2 works without any different firmware) If you contact an ISP and you have the same router that they supply then you will still get the support from the helpdesk. Its just the phone operators trying to ensure that people buy from them and not sim free or from independants selling there own handsets

[3g-g]

It's a shame Orange don't offer the support to a handset they offer if it's not branded, it's not like it's one of those chepo Vertu Ascent handsets. But as 3GSU rightly points out, feel free to come onto the network, spend some money, but don't expect the support, you shouldn't of been so impatient and rushed out for the handset in the firstplace, we were only a couple of months behind!

Orange have only recently relaxed their SIM free/unbranded handset status with a couple of Samsungs, and even at that, you only get limited support even though you've taken out a full 12 month O contract. If you contact CS with a problem they direct you back to the point of purchase, usually Link/CPW.

[chaslam]

I dont see why networks do this. 3 is the same and if you use it in a different phone they block it. I know this is orange and sim free phones but its exactly the same. TBH as long as you are using the phone on their network and they are getting the money, I dont see what the problem is. You want to use them as a network and they want you as a customer, so why start complicating it with all this malarky?

[Ben]

You've all made some very good points but there's just one thing I want to clarify.

My data charges were regarding Orange TV. The application did not say there would be a charge and I called up beforehand to check that, even though I have a SIM-Free handset, I would be entitled to free OTV too.

Orange, rather than refund me the money, have instead turned around and pointed out that actually, according to the airtime agreement, I have no right to even be using my 6680 on their network, and so I'd better shut up about any money I'm owed through being misled.

My handset being SIM-Free had absolutely nothing to do with anything really, other than it being a great excuse for them after two weeks of investigation.

I'll let this go back to the point now, that networks shouldn't be specifying this in their airtime agreements, but I just wanted to give you a little more on my personal experience as I was too peeved to do it accurately earlier! ;) So is that what this is? A get-out clause that exonerates networks from not only having to provide a robust and accurate service capable of withstanding any compatible equipment that is connected, but also from pretty much anything a customer can throw at them if they have chosen to source their handset themselves?

[3g-g]

Do you remember a discussion we all had in a previous life about 3 and their "change of conditions" over certain areas, like charging for national numbers and the like? A mobop contract is completely written in their favour, and who sits and reads the small print anyway?! It's a pain in the ass alright, but I get the feeling we as subs are stuck between a rock and the preverbial hard place.

[kryten]

If sim free handsets are not allowed, why do they sell sim packs?

If I were you I'd say "That's fine, but you're still charging me wrongly for a service, which is illegal under the consumer rights act. Also, such a clause in the contract breaches the Unfair Contracts act; both of which are far more serious. If you want to carry-on with this rubbish you're feeding me then I'm stopping my contract on the grounds of a sub-standard service."

[Ben]

Regretfully Orange 3G is currently only available when purchased with an Orange branded handset. I'd also love to threaten them with leaving, but I just can't! I've tasted the competition and it's not worth leaving Orange over :(

I guess their SIM packs are also only available on PAYG, which probably has a different airtime agreement :(

[Jon3G]

Orange on sell sim free pay and go, the T+C's are different in them

[Hands0n]

A quick extract from the PAYG T&Cs

5. Your responsibilities
5.1.4 only use a phone and accessories approved for use with the network and comply with all relevant legislation or regulation relating to its use

9. Phones
9.1 Your phone and accessories are acquired by you outside of the operation of these terms and conditions and, as between you and Orange, are your property

Not strictly related to this thread but it's a howler worth observing
4. Our rights to terminate your services
4.1.2 for whatever reason we are unable to provide the services

Well, thats alright then :(

[Ben]

"approved for use with the network" - see, this is the exact line that, according to the CSR/whoever they were, means only handsets that are Orange-branded. Perhaps I should ask for a list of 'phones and accessories approved for use with the network"... infact I'm going to email them :D

That clause 4.1.2 is absolutely typical of companies, huh :( I guess it serves as a reminder to us that we're very fortunate to be accepted as privileged telecommunications customers and that we should be thankful for the services we do receive regardless of the quality. Our parting with money in order to receive them is purely coincidental. ;)

Edit: Am I being a bitch?

"Hi,

I'm thinking of putting my Orange PAYG SIM card into a different handset. However, I have noticed in your terms and conditions the following clause:

5. Your responsibilities
5.1.4 only use a phone and accessories approved for use with the network and comply with all relevant legislation or regulation relating to its use.

Therefore, please forward me, by email or post, a complete list of all phones and accessories approved for use with the network. Can you also confirm if these phones and accessories must be purchased from Orange, or be Orange branded, or whether you support SIM-Free handsets or handsets from other networks that have been unlocked.

Kind regards,
Ben"

We might as well be clear and concise!

[Hands0n]

"Am I being a bitch?"

Hee hee :D not at all. I think that if companies are going to write such Draconian clauses into their contracts that they should be held to account also by being required to support such clauses with complete information. Perhaps, Ben, you may invoke the "Freedom of Information Act" to require them to provide you with such information.

I can completely understand the rationale behind the clauses - to avoid being held responsible for SIM-free and other network handsets. And that is fair enough. But to then use such clauses in the manner in which they were used against you I think is disgusting. It does nothing to win consumer confidence in the network, knowing that you can be so treated even though you are paying the full price of the contract having also purchased a phone for full price also (albeit independently of Orange).

To date, a phone has been a phone. Is the time coming where that is no longer the case? Are phones now becoming so highly network-specific that even global standards no longer apply. That the customisations are so deeply rooted that the handsets will no longer be network independent? Are Orange stealthily leading the way in this (I'm thinking of their muted PTT offering that appears to be based on custom software).

Broadening the concept, can we, then, in time be expected to have to buy different TVs and Radios for the different broadcast networks?

[solo12002]

I have no right to even be using my 6680 on their network?

Its nice to know you are wanted. Im sure half of their uses likely use SIM free handsets, and what about Orangs and other networks little selling points:

eg:

Got an old hand set, why not buy one of our wonderful pay as you go sim cards and give it to a mate? :D

[3g-g]

I know it's always in the networks favour the contract, but in slight defence of Orange, if they did allow any old handset onto the network then there's the chance that they couldn't offer you the quality service that they're trying to deliver, and I'm not just defending O, I'm sure the other operators are the same.

You turn up with this skanky SIM free number that's bursing out RF, can't communicate with numerous cells for handovers and turns everyone's TV off as you walk past peoples houses. So you call O to complain about the service, what can they do? They maintain the network to a standard that's good for all the official handsets, which results in a good quality service. But they can't do anything for you, which would quickly tarnish their reputation of being a reliable network, when at the end of the day it was your handset at fault.

I can see the case for SIM free, it's great to be able to have the latest handsets, but I also think it's fair enough of the operators to add a clause that they won't support you if you've got too much money to burn on SIM free ;)

[solo12002]

if they did allow any old handset onto the network then there's the chance that they couldn't offer you the quality service that they're trying to deliver,

How would this work, a brand new unlocked nokia 6680 , put an orange Simcard in to it and the whole network becomes crap, and they cant provide a good service.

Are we missing the point here, should the networks not provide a high standard of service for the user, regardless of who or were they got their Mobile from!

"I can just see it the old network rail saying to Virgin dont bring your trains on to our Tracks, as we are not able to provide the high standard of service"/ or not as high if we provided our own trains?

God is that why they folded?

[Hands0n]

I think the point has to be - if the network does not want "any old handset" on their network then they should not be selling SIM packs. Maybe they won't in the future - but there is little to stop anyone from taking out a contract, buying a SIM-free phone of my choice and selling the "free" handset on eBay!

I can see where 3g-g is coming from but such handsets exist on legitimate terms - so why pick on SIM-free? Support from Orange for such leaky official handsets? I really wonder if Orange would actually support an O-branded handset that was in quite that state! More likely, they'd disconnect the SIM from the network.

I have no problem with contract clauses that say "you are on your own chum" if your shiny new SIM-free does not do all that our branded handsets will. But to turn it on against a paying customer [as they did with Ben] is completely wrong. It only promotes badwill and customer disaffection. But I don't suppose the Mobile Operator Cartel lose any sleep over that these days.