Mixed Experience

[kardking]

I've had a mixed experience with Three. I've been with them since 2003 and have witnessed the trials and tribulations of being a Three customer.

In October 2010 I got my business partner to sign up with Three so that we could utilise the three to three free minutes. He signed up to the One Plan paying £35 per month. He bought the phone to the restaurant in Westminster in London which we own only to find he had no signal, limited service only. He used his O2 mobile to call me very angry as you can imagine. I called CS who advised it must be the phone, HTC Desire. When I got to the restaurant I too had no signal. We had to leave the restaurant walk down the road to get a signal. He promptly cancelled his contract, although Three tried to encourage him to stay by offering him one months line rental. We got a script of excuses why there was no signal.
Then, I spoke to CS and had the fortune to speak to a very competent man. He advised Three had switched off the 2g signal provided by Orange, gave me a range of ideas and immediately, after speaking to his manager increased my minutes from 500 to 900 to compensate for the lost 3 to 3 minutes which allowed me to forward my calls to my T-mobile it landline. He also told me that if I found it was not enough to contact Three again. I duly did and Three changed my plan at no extra cost to me to the One Plan.
I have to make call using my t-mobile phone but as I receive more calls than I make at work, its not too bad. Three advised the problem will be sorted in February. I feel sorry for our customers however, as soon as they approach the restaurant or enter it, they have no signal.

[DBMandrake]

Beginning last November Three are progressively turning off the Orange 2G back-up signal in areas where they deem 3G coverage to be "sufficient", (it just got turned off in my area a few days ago) however as 3G on 2100Mhz has limited building penetration abilities, you'll now find many buildings in which you will no longer get a signal inside, certainly any that previously relied on the phone falling back to 2G coverage. As an example both my local Chemist and Dentist have absolutely zero signal indoors from Three, although both are within 200 metres of the Three mast (one less than 100 metres) and have good signals right outside the front doors. (And the whole area is shown as "blanket" 3G coverage on their coverage map)

If signal penetration deep inside buildings for calls and sms are a priority for you, Vodafone and O2 are really the only choice right now as only they have access to 900Mhz spectrum which penetrates much more deeply into buildings. Interesting that Three are saying the problem will be sorted in February - did they say what they are going to do ? If they've turned off Orange coverage in the area then unless they are installing a new 3G site directly opposite your restaurant I highly doubt there is anything they can do to "sort" this problem.

[3GScottishUser]

The bottom line seems to be if you need to use your handset in buildings then unless you are sitting with a 3 mast next door then avoid 3.

At least one issue has been solved the dropped calls whilst 2G-3G handovers take place. Now on 3 you wont get to use a 2G signal and that will be less frustrating I think.

[kardking]

Three have advised that a new mask was being installed nearby and would be operating as of February. They stated that the new mask would fix the problem. I'm now doubting whether it will.

[3GScottishUser]

I would doubt it too as they told me for 6 years I was in a good coverage area. Turns out I only have a guarantee of a coverage outdoors where I live and guess where i found that out.... 3's own updated coverage maps. I checked agian with 3's CS to confirm I had both indoor and outdoor voice and data and was assured it was very good coverage.... the opposite of what their own published data says!!

Take 3 CS information with a very large dose of salt!

[Hands0n]

Take 3 CS information with a very large dose of salt!

I would second that and just qualify it by saying that applies to their off-shore CS operation. The UK team, if you can get to speak with them, are marvellous in comparison.

[Ben]

Until we get 3G at 900MHz it's always going to have massive coverage issues. Fortunately times are coming where 3G in decent frequencies will be commonplace, with OFCOM already approving the refarming of existing spectrum and new auctions due in 2012.

Will this help Three? Who knows. But for the time being I'd imagine you're far from the only one experiencing this pain, kardking.

[kardking]

Many of my friends and colleagues ask why I remain with Three based on the network issues and poor CS. The answer is simple. I'm on the One Plan, have unlimited landline and the x- series silver all for £5 per month. In fact its costing Three more to keep me as a customer. I'm prepared to wait for the service to improve and use t-mobile as primary network. I'm sure Three would be happy for me to leave but i wont give them the satisfaction.

[Ben]

One can't argue with their tariffs - Three UK are the network that liberates the smartphone. Coverage permitting ;)

As it sounds like improvements may be on the way for you I think waiting a little while is probably a good idea (assuming you're already out of any cancellation period that would've been available to you). Though I will say that, depending on your actual real-world usage, plans that seemingly offer much less on other networks may not actually work out more expensive for you in real terms.

Not that I'd know what network to recommend these days. They're all struggling with something!

[kardking]

Oh well I think I spoke tooooooo soon. I decided, after reading the comments to call Three CS today to get an update. The woman I spoke to had no clue and was talking about something completely different ( I suppose this is standard three confusion tactics ). She put me on to the network team who told me there was a delay in the new mask being installed. They had no new date to give me so referred me to customer options. Even more confusion as I could barely understand what the chap was saying. Ultimately, they're reducing my price plan even further. Thank goodness I listened to you guys.
Three will be a secondary network for me. I don't mind paying them the £3 per month line rental and wait for the service to improve, one day!

[Hands0n]

Blimey Kardking! At this rate you're going to end up with Three paying you to use their service :)

So, in this modern day and age it is no longer Three as such who are pushing out the network coverage of 3G (and no doubt preparing for LTE). That has all been handed over to MBNL (http://www.mbnl.co.uk/)

Mobile Broadband Network Limited (MBNL) is a 50/50 joint venture company owned by 3 UK and T-Mobile (UK). MBNL was formed following the ground breaking network consolidation agreement that was completed on the 18th December 2007. ...

So what you will see is that the geographic coverage of the 3G network for the member companies will grow and improve over time. And not too great a time either. They have been at it for the best part of three years since the formation.

MBNL's profitability will be entirely based upon its own performance in delivering a well distributed and performant network. That will be one of their primary KPI against which they will be paid by its customers (Three and EE).

So, expect better things, even with Three's switching off of 2G fallback. The intention is that such fallback will no longer be required. That can only be on the basis that 3G will infill the gaps caused by the switch off.

Of course, there will be bumps and disruptions along the way. I think that the network operators could do themselves a huge favour by better publicising what they are doing. It is no great secret anyway, but you do have to dig deep to find the information. And the average Joe isn't prepared to do such an amount of digging. Instead they'll get upset, bad feeling is generated, and everyone loses!

[kardking]

HandsOn, I think because I've been very patient with Three since they first launched in the UK, they have in turn been very good to me, hence the mixed experience. In 2007 I chose not to take a phone as part of my upgrade and Three credited my account with sufficient funds so until January 2010 I had not paid them a penny. Three have stopped doing this now although I couldn't understand how they were able to do it in the first place.

Furthermore, because of the network problems, delays and poor service, I now have enough credit on my account so that I won't have to actually pay them for the next 4 years. Hence why I am more than happy to wait.

[miffed]

I suppose it is the usual "postcode lottery" stuff , but I have been back with Three since November , and I am seemingly never without strong 3G coverage - I am very aware that I am simply lucky and I could easily be having the problems you describe - BUT for me it is all working fine .

I wonder if this is is some kind of "Bite the bullet" move by Three ? Surely they must have data that tells them in black and white EXACTLY how many people they will piss off by scrapping the roaming agreement , and have decided they are able to take this on the chin & calculated that the cost of compensating the customers they fail is acceptable or
Of course it is nothing short of a pain in the ass if you are affected , but I have to say part of me is pleased to be on a 100% 3G network ! ....if I have signal , it will be 3G , ...if there is a hole , I know that it will be plugged with 3G rather than 2G or EDGE !! its almost like a "cruel to be kind" phase that we need to go through to move forward.

Onwards and Upwards !! LOL

[DBMandrake]

Trouble is, many of those holes won't get "plugged" until after 850/900Mhz spectrum becomes available to networks other than O2/Vodafone. Spectrum auctions for new spectrum aren't until 2012, and even assuming Three manage to get a good chunk of 850Mhz spectrum at that time, even a very aggressive roll-out nationwide would take at least 2 years, so we're looking at 2014 at the very earliest before there would be any wide spread roll-out.

Depending on what frequencies Three got hold of, a large percentage of customers may need to get new handsets to take advantage of it. As you say, they really do seem to have gone with a "bite the bullet" approach, and seem willing to take it on the chin in the interests of moving forward. (And lowering their running costs...) The problem is, they're basically gambling the future of the company on it.

If they piss off enough people due to loss of coverage, including a lack of coverage indoors, their already tenuous reputation could go down hill again very quickly, resulting in them no longer being around by 2014...

Without wanting to sound over dramatic, if they're going to go down this route of turning off 2G backup, the future of Three as a company hinges on them gaining access to low frequencies for 3G and doing the fastest roll-out of it they possibly can...a speedy and comprehensive roll-out of low frequency 3G coverage would in one swoop make them by far the best network in the UK, (at least from a technical perspective) while failure to do so could be their ruination, as people whose contracts are coming due grow tired of putting up with black spots.

For the time being I'm willing to put up with the current situation, but if I were to start living or working somewhere I couldn't get any signal, my hand would be forced into switching networks, and I'm sure many other people think the same way.

I'm crossing my fingers for Three, but I think they've got a (self-inflicted) tough few years ahead of them while the 3G spectrum story plays itself out...especially if Vodafone and O2 move quickly to capitalize on their existing 900Mhz spectrum holdings, but somehow I don't think they will be in a huge rush ;)

[Hands0n]

Three are well positioned to make a massive impact in the UK market by way of the MBNL relationship. Should the network auctions see them (MBNL) acquire the new frequencies then Three could make use of these through a financial arrangement. The whole game changed the moment MBNL came into being. It is they, not Three, who will have to stock the 12,000 (at current count) masts to be 850/900Mhz capable. It is up to Three (and EE) actually purchase access to the new airtime technology.

[DBMandrake]

Three are well positioned to make a massive impact in the UK market by way of the MBNL relationship. Should the network auctions see them (MBNL) acquire the new frequencies then Three could make use of these through a financial arrangement. The whole game changed the moment MBNL came into being. It is they, not Three, who will have to stock the 12,000 (at current count) masts to be 850/900Mhz capable. It is up to Three (and EE) actually purchase access to the new airtime technology.

I think you might be misunderstanding the relationship between MBNL, Three, and EE, (formerly T-Mobile) having it almost back to front :)

As far as I know, MBNL don't own the frequencies used by Three or T-Mobile, nor do they own the actual equipment installed at each site - and they don't lease access service to Three or T-Mobile, they are just a 50/50 joint owned subcontractor who are tasked with performing installation, integration and maintenance of Three and T-Mobile's base station sites. (not their core networks)

When MBNL was created some of the Three network engineers and T-Mobile network engineers were transferred into the new joint company.

Three and T-Mobile don't share the same frequencies - they have their own separate 3G frequency allocations, Three have 15Mhz of spectrum in 3 channels, while T-Mobile have 10Mhz of spectrum in 2 channels. (Orange also have 10Mhz in 2 channels - thus far not integrated in any way by MBNL)

According to sources in the know, each MBNL site consists of completely separate racks of cellular base station equipment for Three and T-Mobile, which are then connected via Diplexers to the same antennas, to avoid requiring a duplicate set of antennas.

So on an MBNL site the building, power, mast, and antennas are shared, but the cellular base station and backhaul is independent. (When I say the backhaul is independent, technically it probably connects to BT via the same physical fibre/ethernet for cost reasons, but they'll be separate virtual circuits routing to Three and T-Mobile's core networks respectively, each with partitioned/guaranteed capacity...)

Orange will at some point be joining MBNL, but technically they will be doing so by merging their network with T-Mobile, not by joining MBNL as a third party. (A significant distinction from a practical perspective)

Come 2012 and the spectrum auctions, it will be up to Three and EE to bid on their own separate spectrum allocations - and they will most likely be bidding against each other as well as O2 and Vodafone.

Once spectrum is obtained by each party, Three and EE will each have to finance buying their half of the equipment to go into each site - and it is then up to MBNL to do the actual implementation and installation of the new equipment across the country.

The reason why I picked Three out in particular as being in trouble until 850/900Mhz 3G spectrum becomes available to them, is because EE can afford to drag their heels a bit as they have their 1800Mhz 2G to fall back onto for filling in what would otherwise be black spots. It is after all Orange that Three were getting their 2G roaming from, so EE customers will all soon get at least as good 2G coverage as Three customers were previously, but are no longer getting.

For Three on the other hand it's of utmost importance for them to get that low frequency coverage in place, and I'm not sure what happens if Three bid on and obtain frequencies, and EE don't, or if EE drags their heels in the rollout - is it possible for Three to go ahead and roll out low frequency 3G without EE's co-operation ? If not could we see EE trying to starve Three out by being slow at rolling out the shared low frequency 3G that Three so desperately need ?

[Hands0n]

Thanks for that. However, some of that is not my understanding from the "stuff" that I have read, and even MBNL's own website suggests a greater ownership.

MBNL manages and delivers the combined 3G access networks of the two companies.

The keyword is "delivers" which is usually taken to mean that they have taken ownership of the assets by some means or another to then "deliver" the services across. It also strongly implies that MBNA is very much more than simply an engineering maintenance company.

None of the foregoing would preclude distinct separation of the actual technology - base station and back haul circuits (virtual or otherwise).

By combining their 3G access networks (the mobile masts and infrastructure that connects to each operator's separate core network) T-Mobile and 3 UK will create Europe's most extensive high-speed downlink packet access (HSDPA) network.

Although from one of their presentations (http://mbnl.co.uk/documents/RICS%20Telcom%20Forum%20GP%20Presentation%20CS%20V 6%20advance.pdf) it suggests completely the opposite

Using the optimal set of T-Mobile or 3UK sites;

Common physical equipment (antennas and by electronic changes within the same BTS cabinets)
Using a single power supply and a single backhaul transmission solution.
Single Agreements with Landlords
Single operations


Now I have taken a lot of what I've read to be indicative of the MBNL joint venture to have included acquisition of assets - that may not be the case, as you have said. In the absence of such an asset takeover there must then be a rather complex financial model whereby each operator compensates the other. Where sites are de-comissioned in lieu of the other operator providing the coverage. And some elaborate netting off agreement to ensure fair cost distributions ...

More research required - although there is a lot of obscurity in the relationship.