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View Full Version : When Dilbert came to Nokia - An insightful look at how Nokia lost their way


Hands0n
16th October 2010, 03:10 PM
The company and name Nokia inspires comment everywhere. It is a global brand that shows up in every corner of this planet. From the richest to the poorest nations the Nokia label can be seen. Without question, Nokia is the mobile phone manufacturer of the 20th and 21st century, so far.

And yet many people, myself included, have become completely disillusioned with the product that Nokia have been putting out for the past several years. For my part the last half-decent handset they made was the N95, once they'd eventually got that right. It was not without a host of problems with the firmware, although the hardware was pretty good. I never had the N95-8GB but everyone I know who did have one of those considered it the pinnacle of handsets everywhere. Nothing came close! After that, however, things began to unravel for Nokia.

I have been completely underwhelmed by every single handset that Nokia has put out since the N95 and N95-8GB. For me, the laughing stock has to be the N97, Nokia's response to the iPhone of the day whilst disparaging about the Android OS that was becoming apparent. That attitude cost them dearly in the matching stakes of smartphone.

Then one only has to look at the dogs dinner that Nokia have made of Symbian. The jury is out in respect to the latest incarnation of that OS, Symbian ^3. We will have to wait and see if Nokia have managed to turn that around any. The N8 is the first device to sport the new Symbian, its hardware looks impressive, but we all know that the experience is very much greater than any single part.

And so, turning to the article in The Register I find it a very interesting and compelling read. A lot of answers appear that help explain how Nokia turned from such consistent innovation to apparent confusion and chaos.

The full article and associated links to source documentation is posted here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/14/nokia_dilbert/


You may have had your fill of Nokia analysis and features, but I'd like to draw your attention to one more - one that's very special. The Finnish daily Helsingin Sanomat has published a report based on 15 interviews with senior staff. It reads like the transcript to an Oscar-winning documentary where the narrative thread is held together entirely by the talking heads.

The report is very long on detail and short on opinionising - and for those of you fascinated by technology and bureaucracy, something quite interesting emerges. What we learn is that the company's current predicament was fated in 2003, when a re-organisation split Nokia's all-conquering mobile phones division into three units. The architect was Jorma Ollila, Nokia's most successful ever CEO, and a popular figure - who steered the company from crisis in 1992 to market leadership in mobile phones - and who as chairman oversaw the ousting of Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo this year.

In Ollila's reshuffle, Nokia made a transition from an agile, highly reactive product-focused company to one that managed a matrix, or portfolio. The phone division was split into three: Multimedia, Enterprise and Phones, and the divisions were encouraged to compete for staff and resources. The first Nokia made very few products to a very high standard. But after the reshuffle, which took effect on 1 January 2004, the in-fighting became entrenched, and the company being increasingly bureaucratic. The results were pure Dilbert material.


Executive managers interviewed note how the result was a large number of indifferent products.


"About four years ago one of the S40 'phones achieved a major feature milestone and got one lacklustre paragraph in the internal newsletter; by comparison an S60 offering had been reduced from a ridiculously high Field Failure Rate to something just risibly high. But from the pages of congratulatory ****ing you'd have thought that the damn thing had achieved sentience."


But because the flawed key design, with the floating backspace, is part of Nokia's 2010 "design language" for 2010, the flaw is replicated across several devices - including, now, the C3 and E5.

So, can Nokia turn this around? Or will the new CEO be unable to halt and then reverse this decline that has the potential to be terminal?

Have a read of the full article, in context, and see what you think. It is compelling stuff.
Ben
17th October 2010, 12:35 PM
Nokia are a great manufacturer to be sure. When phones were relatively simple they could hammer them out with astounding quality (save a few, but every manufacturer has its cockups) and they met the surging market demand head-on. Once a Nokia was out, it was out; people certainly didn't have to queue outside Carphone Warehouse for weeks ;)

But aside from manufacturing quality, things have been going wrong as handsets have grown more complex. I don't think it happened as suddenly as the article suggests, though I agree that certain changes within Nokia have created systemic issues that have somewhat clogged the machine.

It's telling that these days Nokia's numbers come from emerging markets, where simple phones and mass production are still vogue, and not the developed world. Nokia haven't changed. They're still excellent at what they do best. What we didn't see, due to lack of competition and innovation, was just how poor the lineup got when it came to new technologies.

It very much feels like HTC are the Nokia for the new generation. They've relinquished responsibility over the OS, though they've managed to create a success in the HTC Sense interface they lay over Android, and concentrated on manufacturing, putting them at loggerheads with Nokia. Companies like Apple make the hardware and the software, but they always have - it's in their blood, it's in their CEO's blood (Steve Jobs is very much a man for beautiful hardware, but a fool would forget that he created NeXT and Pixar and sold them to Apple and Disney respectively). So what's in Nokia's blood? Tyres.

Letting Symbian go free and partnering with Intel on Meego gives Nokia a lot of hope for the future when it comes to high end devices. Perhaps the better outcome by far would've been if they had worked with Google in the early days of Android, being the launch partner for the Nexus One and the de facto producer of Android handsets the world over. It's not like they're a stranger to sharing an operating system with other manufacturers.

The door has been well and truly opened to HTC, and Nokia will never be able to close it again. Competition in mobile is fierce. What exciting times we live in.
@NickyColman
17th October 2010, 01:19 PM
I think the problems with Nokia are large & varied. Like its been said, they've completely lost their grip and stand to loose so much more in the coming years.

*MY* problem with Nokia, and i think this might apply to a number of people, is their philosophy on what a handset is supposed to be. Nokia seem to want to create 100's of different handsets for 100's of different people, a jack of all trades if you will. But like the saying goes, they're a master of non.

They create levels of handsets - C - E - N - X with the average user having no concept of what they represent. Is C a budget handset? Or is it quite good because its closer to the letter A? Is C6 better than C7? Or is an N8 where its at? But N is further down the alphabet? So does that mean the X6 is the best handset in the range?

Now, in contrast to the much mentioned iPhone, a customer can walk into a shop and say . . . .

"Hello, I want the new Apple iPhone".
"Oh ok sir, what size? 16GB 32GB?"
"16GB please."

Decision made.

Now, repeat those steps and replace the word Apple with Nokia. Confusion ensues.

Nokia have tiered their entire product line with no real pay off or purpose. Todays customer wants more. More apps, more features, and a better experience. They want a phone that can do the lot.

To fix the problem, IMHO, Nokia need to do the following :-

- Focus on a main demographic. The iPhone manages to smash it, from grandkids to grandparents. Mothers, sons, daughters, cousins, dads - everyone knows the iPhone.

- Ditch their crazy naming scheme. 'N Series' doesn't carry any weight with todays consumer. Its not a luxury brand. Take the lead from other handset manufactures with names such as 'Desire', 'Galaxy' etc. Or maybe take it back to scratch. The Nokia ONE. And so on. Next year, when the follow-up is released, The new Nokia ONE. And so on.

- Cut their lines. Reduce their handsets to maybe two or three handset releases a year. A budget/basic handset. A business handset. And an 'iPhone Killer' handset.
- Go back to basics with Symbian. Again, Symbian doesn't carry weight when compared to iOS or Android. Rename, rebrand. Maybe call it Ovi? Build it from the ground up.

I read an article on Symbian recently that explained one of Symbian's main problems/strengths was the fact it supported legacy apps, some of which are almost a decade old. Can Nokia really justify supporting these apps in the face of losing market share? Look at Apple as an example, the iPhone & iPhone 3G's are slowly being cut out of apps & features they support, forcing the customer to transition to better models. Might not be great for poorer customers, but great for business.

If Nokia stop trying to make 50 different handsets to fit every single person and concentrate on a quality product then maybe they might catch my attention. In a good way.
Hands0n
17th October 2010, 04:06 PM
I think that in the entire article the most telling paragraph contains the following;

... Nokia made a transition from an agile, highly reactive product-focused company to one that managed a matrix, or portfolio. The phone division was split into three: Multimedia, Enterprise and Phones, and the divisions were encouraged to compete for staff and resources. The first Nokia made very few products to a very high standard. But after the reshuffle, which took effect on 1 January 2004, the in-fighting became entrenched, and the company being increasingly bureaucratic.

I have seen this happen in the City financial district, and also with suppliers to the firms I used to work with. In the process they all turned highly successful and focussed companies into meaningless amorphous blobs of their former selves. Previously responsive they ended up log jammed by crushing internal competition and bureaucracy, all the good people left, jobsworths flourished, quality crashed and we went elsewhere. A few years on these companies no longer existed.

Now I'm not suggesting that Nokia may disappear overnight - but even the great and mighty have been eschewed out of the market by these kind of development. Nokia could well find itself relegated out of the mass retail market and into the networks business only. Unthinkable to very many Nokia fans but the reality of the world market is entirely fickle.

Consider, for a moment, where mobile devices are going. They are less and less likely to remain in use for simple voice and text messaging. Increasingly, and even in the third world markets, mobile is being used for Internet access and that demands something considerably smarter than a Nokia 6300, say. Given that the likes of Huawei are able to put out an Android handset for under £100 it is reasonable to expect that we will see this class of device commoditised in the years soon to come. They will not longer be high priced premium product going for £450+. But they will be equally as functional - even if they do not have Karl Zeiss optics and a Xenon flash.

No, I think Nokia have very little time left to re-establish itself in the high end market, to compete effectively with the new upstarts, and even some of its older pals like Motorola who have completely turned around their popularity and fortunes with Android.

But Nokia have a tougher nut to crack - and that is their own internal structure. If the new CEO can turn it back into that agile product-focussed organisation and completely dismantle the matrix competitive structure that persists then they may have a reasonable chance. They have got to move quickly.
Ben
26th October 2010, 12:18 PM
On the subject of Symbian, what do we all make of the rumours that the Symbian Foundation will be dismantled?

Will Nokia take Symbian in-house and make it work?

With so few third parties using Symbian it makes absolute sense to me to bring it within Nokia and perhaps even ditch the open-source effort if it helps. If the OS only runs on Nokias then few will care whether it's open source or not.

I quite like the idea of renaming it Ovi, @NickyColman.
Hands0n
26th October 2010, 08:12 PM
Symbian has passed its sell by date. Like the parrot in the Monty Python sketch, it is no more, it has run up the curtains and joined the choir excelsior. It is a dead OS and no amount of "nailing it to the perch" by Nokia will bring it back to life.

Nokia need to get a leg back up into what transpires to be the smartphone market. Their best bet is to either take on Android (as did Motorola to their complete success) or licence WP7 and make that work.

Nokia also need to dismantle the ridiculous organisation that they have created and return to the model that was so successful for them originally. It never ceases to amaze me why perfectly functioning organisations are effectively dismantled in the name of Change for change's sake. Often with disasterous outcomes.
The Mullet of G
1st November 2010, 02:21 PM
Well that was an entertaining read, and by that I mean this thread, I didn't bother with the article. Its always funny to read the doom and gloom stuff about Nokia on here, especially since most other sites are awash with positive buzz about Nokia's upcoming range of handsets and the future in general, those sites always seem really active, not sure if there is a connection there but maybe if you change the record more people will come to the party, just sayin'. ;)

These threads are a lot like the ones you read on Linux and OS X forums predicting the death of Microsoft and Windows, substitute the words Vista with N97 and XP with N95 and its the same old story, yet Microsoft are still here and Windows is still crushing the competition by a wide margin. :)
Ben
1st November 2010, 04:43 PM
most other sites are awash with positive buzz about Nokia's upcoming range of handsets
I do love to buzz about vapourware. Lets face it, the N8 'comeback phone' has hardly stolen the show.

When they ship something good I'll get interested. As it happens, they last shipped something good with the Nokia N95 8GB, and I think you'll find that's the last time I had something good to say about them :)
Hands0n
1st November 2010, 04:49 PM
Beat me to it with the N8 reference. The N8, Nokia's 2010 version of the N97. Nuff said really.
The Mullet of G
1st November 2010, 07:52 PM
Have any of you used an N8 or an E7? Yeah thought not, and that right there pretty much sums it up. The vast majority of people whining about Vista had also never actually used it. I'll be reserving this posting space as I suspect I'll be using it to post a "haha you were wrong" post in a few months. :)
Hands0n
1st November 2010, 09:56 PM
Used an N8, didn't like it that much, Symbian ^3 is not all that its cracked up to be. Just more of the same. So yea, I've used it and arrived at an objective and subjective opinion on it.
The Mullet of G
2nd November 2010, 08:25 PM
I'll be honest here - pictures or it didn't happen.
hecatae
2nd November 2010, 08:49 PM
still waiting for the 5th step in Maemo's evolution, where is the N9?

or will it be the N9-01, see what i did there?
Hands0n
2nd November 2010, 11:45 PM
Even Getti had an N8 for evaluation as part of his role as a Nokia blogger. I'll try not to put words into his mouth but he was underwhelmed. Now this is a real died in the wool Nokia enthusiast.

Me, personally, I absolutely love the look of the N8. I think it is a very attractive design. But thats where it all stops. In Symbian^3 there is nothing much at all to see.

Maybe the new CEO of Nokia can get them back on full strength again. But right now it is all rather boring.
miffed
3rd November 2010, 08:09 AM
new CEO


No more questions your honour.
The Mullet of G
3rd November 2010, 10:44 AM
still waiting for the 5th step in Maemo's evolution, where is the N9?

or will it be the N9-01, see what i did there?

I'm thinking early 2011 before its released, looks sweet spec wise.


Even Getti had an N8 for evaluation as part of his role as a Nokia blogger. I'll try not to put words into his mouth but he was underwhelmed. Now this is a real died in the wool Nokia enthusiast.

Me, personally, I absolutely love the look of the N8. I think it is a very attractive design. But thats where it all stops. In Symbian^3 there is nothing much at all to see.

Maybe the new CEO of Nokia can get them back on full strength again. But right now it is all rather boring.

The developer community doesn't seem to agree with you, some of the biggest devs out there are taking notice of N8 already, Gameloft is porting its massively popular iPhone games to the N8 and graphically they are as good if not better than the iPhone counterparts, unlike the lazy ports they rolled out for Android that looked and smelled suspiciously of Java. :)
hecatae
3rd November 2010, 03:45 PM
Symbian's Utopia - and why it was an impossible dream http://reg.cx/1Lqw
The Mullet of G
3rd November 2010, 04:44 PM
Symbian's Utopia - and why it was an impossible dream http://reg.cx/1Lqw
That article fell apart completely in the second paragraph when the guy requested anonymity, seriously we're talking about a mobile OS here he isn't testifying against the Mafia, if he isn't willing to stand behind what he has said, then I'm not willing to waste my time reading it.
Ben
3rd November 2010, 04:49 PM
Symbian's Utopia - and why it was an impossible dream http://reg.cx/1Lqw Quite the reverse to the method of programming for iOS, then, by the sound of it. It was a very noble objective. But a lot about what Symbian as an OS was actually designed for and what it is used for in practice today makes a very good case for its demise.
The Mullet of G
3rd November 2010, 07:53 PM
Quite the reverse to the method of programming for iOS, then, by the sound of it. It was a very noble objective. But a lot about what Symbian as an OS was actually designed for and what it is used for in practice today makes a very good case for its demise.

To be fair programing for iOS isn't as rosy as you make it out to be, least Symbian don't dictate what tools you can use to make your apps and games, and they haven't adopted a preacher attitude where they dictate the type of content people can produce based on one guys weird view of the world. Each platform has its strengths and weaknesses but an OS is just lines of code, it isn't carved out of stone so it can be changed and re-written indefinitely, I agree Symbian maybe needs to evolve a bit more, but it would be kinda silly from a business standpoint to kill off something that was still selling by the bucketload.
hecatae
3rd November 2010, 08:03 PM
To be fair programing for iOS isn't as rosy as you make it out to be, least Symbian don't dictate what tools you can use to make your apps and games, and they haven't adopted a preacher attitude where they dictate the type of content people can produce based on one guys weird view of the world. Each platform has its strengths and weaknesses but an OS is just lines of code, it isn't carved out of stone so it can be changed and re-written indefinitely, I agree Symbian maybe needs to evolve a bit more, but it would be kinda silly from a business standpoint to kill off something that was still selling by the bucketload.

carved in stone


The approved method is that you create an HBufC (a Heap allocated, BUFfer that is Constant), then Call Des() on it (which returns a TPtr - a pointer to a writable descriptor)," he says.
getti
3rd November 2010, 08:17 PM
Thought I would put a few words in to this thread as it as about Nokia. I came back to the Nokia scene about 3 months ago after giving up and walking away, i missed being part of the community and I heard good things about the new devices so I came back excited and was part of the Nokia World event in London where I got to see ALL the new devices announced, the N8, C7, C6 and E7.

The problem I have with Nokia still and was very vocal about it was this. Just before the event the CEO resigned, on the way to the event another of the top guys Anssi Vanjoki resigned, I sat in the main keynote with all the guys shouting NOKIA IS BACK, with talk of a new Nokia with exciting times ahead. The day after Nokia World rumor spread around the internet that the N8 had been delayed AGAIN because of final testing so all this talk of a new Nokia and the second our backs are turned the old Nokia comes back to haunt once again.

It was also said MeeGo was not going to be at Nokia World but there would be an announcement this year about a MeeGo device, then about a month after the event it is said by the new CEO that MeeGo will be 2011 project so nothing this year.... ANOTHER delay. Onto the devices:

Nokia N8 - Very nice hardware wise, but hardware has never been an issue with Nokia, they make stunning hardware but shoddy software. I know many Nokia fans who would kill you if they could get hands on a N8 running Android or iOS. The camera is nothing short of spectacular but again this has never been an issue with Nokia. The problem is Symbian 3 is just what it says.. SYMBIAN. I joked about it with Hands0n saying Symbian 3 is like Symbian getting all tarted up for a night out on the pull with a brand new look only to have to wake up in the morning back to real life and the norm.

Nokia C6 - Really nice size, strange model number as there is already a C6 on sale which only launched a few months back with slide out keys, this will confuse people, did they just run out of model numbers?

Nokia C7 - A very nice phone this one, slim, well built, available at a good price on contracts if not a little too much sim free. No auto-focus, instead there is a full focus with everything from 100cm to infinity staying in focus, when i tried to take photos they came out a bit poor (and i take a lot of mobile photos!).

Nokia E7 - This is the main focus for Nokia, it is a N8 with worse camera but slide out keyboard and larger 4 inch screen, a real business phone although they compare it to the Communicator series, I would have preferred a new clamshell like Communicator to carry on this series. Again the main issue is not hardware, when it comes to the E7 the hardware is pure genius i LOVE it. Slap Android 2.2 or iOS on there and I am sold!. Put MeeGo on and I am sold!. Leave Symbian on and it wont even enter my house.

Over the past 2 years, Android has kept updating features and tweeks here and there to the performance, iOS has improved a lot too adding some great new features and bringing the iPhone to the next level. Having used Symbian 3 all it feels like they have done is just given the UI a slight (and i mean SLIGHT) overhaul and pushed it out the door. I was in the car (not driving) to Exeter and had to pull up a website for a local restaurant and download the PDF of the menu to check when they finish serving sunday lunch.... a fairly simple task for a new smartphone on 2010 running a new OS you would think?.

Getting to the site took what felt like an age even on a near full HSDPA connection, i found the download link for the menu PDF which did not recognise my tapps, i had to zoom right in and tap again for it to download which it actually downloaded really fast but when opening the menu trying to zoom into a section of the menu I needed to look at was just a total FAIL!. Had to tap all over the place and then the phone locked up, would not let me press ANY buttons and cause the battery cannot be taken out officially I had to do the manual reboot of holding power and volume down for the battery to turn off and then back on again.

The whole experience on a brand new OS on what was hoping to be the return of Nokia was just more frustrating that I ever imagined and has made be vow to NEVER buy another Symbian phone again. if MeeGo is good i will stick with Nokia, however Symbian is just dead to me, they have failed to improve the user experience for me and I am not throwing any more money into their R&D to c**k it up any more.

When an animal is old and in pain vet's say the best and most humain thing to do is to put it down and to not let it suffer in pain. Now that everyone apart from Nokia has left Symbian can't they do the same thing and put everyone out their misery with Symbian and just move on.
The Mullet of G
3rd November 2010, 08:49 PM
carved in stone

I've heard it both ways. :)


Thought I would put a few words in to this thread as it as about Nokia. I came back to the Nokia scene about 3 months ago after giving up and walking away, i missed being part of the community and I heard good things about the new devices so I came back excited and was part of the Nokia World event in London where I got to see ALL the new devices announced, the N8, C7, C6 and E7.

The problem I have with Nokia still and was very vocal about it was this. Just before the event the CEO resigned, on the way to the event another of the top guys Anssi Vanjoki resigned, I sat in the main keynote with all the guys shouting NOKIA IS BACK, with talk of a new Nokia with exciting times ahead. The day after Nokia World rumor spread around the internet that the N8 had been delayed AGAIN because of final testing so all this talk of a new Nokia and the second our backs are turned the old Nokia comes back to haunt once again.

It was also said MeeGo was not going to be at Nokia World but there would be an announcement this year about a MeeGo device, then about a month after the event it is said by the new CEO that MeeGo will be 2011 project so nothing this year.... ANOTHER delay. Onto the devices:

Nokia N8 - Very nice hardware wise, but hardware has never been an issue with Nokia, they make stunning hardware but shoddy software. I know many Nokia fans who would kill you if they could get hands on a N8 running Android or iOS. The camera is nothing short of spectacular but again this has never been an issue with Nokia. The problem is Symbian 3 is just what it says.. SYMBIAN. I joked about it with Hands0n saying Symbian 3 is like Symbian getting all tarted up for a night out on the pull with a brand new look only to have to wake up in the morning back to real life and the norm.

Nokia C6 - Really nice size, strange model number as there is already a C6 on sale which only launched a few months back with slide out keys, this will confuse people, did they just run out of model numbers?

Nokia C7 - A very nice phone this one, slim, well built, available at a good price on contracts if not a little too much sim free. No auto-focus, instead there is a full focus with everything from 100cm to infinity staying in focus, when i tried to take photos they came out a bit poor (and i take a lot of mobile photos!).

Nokia E7 - This is the main focus for Nokia, it is a N8 with worse camera but slide out keyboard and larger 4 inch screen, a real business phone although they compare it to the Communicator series, I would have preferred a new clamshell like Communicator to carry on this series. Again the main issue is not hardware, when it comes to the E7 the hardware is pure genius i LOVE it. Slap Android 2.2 or iOS on there and I am sold!. Put MeeGo on and I am sold!. Leave Symbian on and it wont even enter my house.

Over the past 2 years, Android has kept updating features and tweeks here and there to the performance, iOS has improved a lot too adding some great new features and bringing the iPhone to the next level. Having used Symbian 3 all it feels like they have done is just given the UI a slight (and i mean SLIGHT) overhaul and pushed it out the door. I was in the car (not driving) to Exeter and had to pull up a website for a local restaurant and download the PDF of the menu to check when they finish serving sunday lunch.... a fairly simple task for a new smartphone on 2010 running a new OS you would think?.

Getting to the site took what felt like an age even on a near full HSDPA connection, i found the download link for the menu PDF which did not recognise my tapps, i had to zoom right in and tap again for it to download which it actually downloaded really fast but when opening the menu trying to zoom into a section of the menu I needed to look at was just a total FAIL!. Had to tap all over the place and then the phone locked up, would not let me press ANY buttons and cause the battery cannot be taken out officially I had to do the manual reboot of holding power and volume down for the battery to turn off and then back on again.

The whole experience on a brand new OS on what was hoping to be the return of Nokia was just more frustrating that I ever imagined and has made be vow to NEVER buy another Symbian phone again. if MeeGo is good i will stick with Nokia, however Symbian is just dead to me, they have failed to improve the user experience for me and I am not throwing any more money into their R&D to c**k it up any more.

When an animal is old and in pain vet's say the best and most humain thing to do is to put it down and to not let it suffer in pain. Now that everyone apart from Nokia has left Symbian can't they do the same thing and put everyone out their misery with Symbian and just move on.


You mention the "return of Nokia" then are almost reduced to tears because there is bugs in the first release of a new OS, what Nokia were you expecting to return? This is how Nokia's Symbian range has always been, so they haven't really lied to you or anything. Nokia always take a firmware release or two before they get going, N95 is a great example of this, with the N8 you already know the hardware is great, I unlike many here actually have faith that Nokia will produce the goods. :)
Hands0n
4th November 2010, 01:30 AM
You're going to have to help me here ... N95 FF to N8. What about all the rubbish that Nokia introduced in between these two?

Look, even Nokia's own execs and managers have publicly complained that the company has lost not only its way but its ability to produce coherent product. Mostly this is attributed, by them, to internal competition for finances and resources. Literally, Nokia ripping itself to pieces. The result has been mediocrity and atrocity such as the N97 and others. Even the E series has taken a bit of a bashing if Nokia's own people are to be understood.

So, it is not simply Nokia bashing by anyone on Talk3G. The thoughts and opinions expressed here have much substance in reality, they have much support by Nokia's own people.

The N8 is another turkey - and that will be evidenced in the short time to come. That is my prediction, take it or leave it. I would be happy to be proven wrong as I really do find the hardware attractive and of a really neat design. But I believe that with Symbian^3 Nokia are flogging the proverbial dead horse. Particularly so in the wake of more advanced OS that is prevalent today in 2010 going on into 2011.

My money is on the new ex-Microsoft CEO turning Nokia around and getting it back on track producing the extraordinary kit that it used to before the fragmentation of the organisation. But right now, as things stand, it is all a bit smelly.
The Mullet of G
4th November 2010, 11:43 AM
I owned Nokia phones between the N95 and N8 and although they probably wouldn't set the world alight, they were very competent phones that provided features and functionality that in many cases is beyond what the competition could offer.

Its easy to focus on the negatives, but there are millions of happy Nokia customers out there, they don't seem to care about a few execs moaning. On one side you have millions of happy users with positive stories and experiences across a vast range of handsets, on the other side you have a few people who worry about execs and when pushed can only seem to name one bad phone and one good one.

This forum has approximately 3 regular users, all of which are massively pro Apple/Android and fairly negative in regards to Nokia, if I was to believe the viewpoint on here then Nokia and Symbian is long dead, yet should I look to one of the biggest mobile forums on the internet I find quite the opposite is true, the Symbian^3 forum has almost as many posts as the iPhone forum does despite the fact one is a lot older than the other, and the S60v5 forum has almost as many as both combined. So you see its hard for me to accept the doom and gloom view that Nokia is dead, as it just doesn't fit the bigger picture that I'm seeing.

I fully respect your right to express your opinion, I wouldn't have it any other way, however in this case I don't agree with it and I feel that sales figures will speak for themselves in the months to come.

Just for the sake of it can you name some of the extraordinary kit Nokia produced before the fragmentation? :)
Ben
4th November 2010, 12:43 PM
Just for the sake of it can you name some of the extraordinary kit Nokia produced before the fragmentation? :)
I'd say the 6680 was the last piece of kit that they produced that I considered to be extraordinary. My friends were literally amazed by it, especially when I started taking videos. It was like this thing had come from outer space; none of them had ever seen anything like it.

I used that phone so heavily that I bruised the end of my thumb :)

That's not to say there weren't faults. There were. Plenty. But it was one of those phones where you just didn't care.
Hands0n
4th November 2010, 03:33 PM
Regardless of how many regular posters there are on this forum it is quite well read and regularly turns out high up the ratings of search engines such as Google. Talk3G is also completely agnostic to any particular brand or manufacturer. On here we tell it as we see it. If it is good then it will feature. If not then it still may but we will not pay fawning compliments where they are not due.

That said, we have very correctly picked ip on Nokia's own staff feedback to the community and industry. It would be specious and inappropriate to ignore or disparage their valuable insight to the company that is Nokia. That other such fan getup forums will not hear a word against Nokia or their product is, to me, irrelevant. It is pure head in the sand, emperor's new clothes la-la land. Which is precisely why I do not gravitate to such forums for anything other than some technical fact. I'd rather not go there and get drawn into some rabid flameware with the locals. It really isn't that important in the scheme of things.

I wonder why it would seem to be so very wrong to be "massively in favour of ..." the current and leading technologies. And in respect to the various experiences, when held up against a Nokia, any current Nokia, both Android and iOS devices are superior across the piece. That may grate but it does not take away the simple fact that as things currently stand Nokia are not in the bidding on a like for like basis with these two.

I fully accept that not everyone in the world wants an Android or iOS style device, and that is where Nokia still excel, clearly.

As to the sales figures speaking for themselves, I'd agree completely. Nokia lost a lot of kudos with the N97. Some walked away permanently. Others are likely to give their beloved another chance. But each time Nokia turn out a turkey like the N97 they lose a little bit more credibility and brand reputation.

And then one could write a complete essay on Nokia's fragmented attempts at building a supporting ecosystem for their advanced handsets. But one won't :)
miffed
4th November 2010, 05:05 PM
I remember when Talk3G were squarely behind Nokia , in fact this went on past the advent of the Original iPhone and well into the life of the 3G , with the "devices of choice" being 6630's , 6680's , then the N & E series , I recall a stage where we "alll" appeared to have N95's , No one accused us of being Nokia biased back then , and the reason for that is that we weren't ! - It's simply a case of going where the grass is greenest !
Ben
4th November 2010, 05:59 PM
I remember when Talk3G were squarely behind Nokia , in fact this went on past the advent of the Original iPhone and well into the life of the 3G , with the "devices of choice" being 6630's , 6680's , then the N & E series , I recall a stage where we "alll" appeared to have N95's , No one accused us of being Nokia biased back then , and the reason for that is that we weren't ! - It's simply a case of going where the grass is greenest !
Oh absolutely, I have no doubt that this is the case. Hence why most of us also have at least 1 Android device now, as it's momentum continues to build.
Hands0n
4th November 2010, 06:11 PM
Perhaps what raises the most confusion in anyone visiting Talk3G is exactly *what* is our particular allegiance. The answer, as we know it, is that there isn't one. The typical Talk3G'er remains completely agnostic to manufacturer, brand, model of mobile device. That, probably, makes Talk3G somewhat unique in the network of forum that exist today.

Come the day that Nokia, or anyone else for that matter, produce mobile devices that stimulate as well or better than iOS and Android we'll no doubt be writing volumes about those devices.

That is not to say that we do not write about anything else. Even a casual browse will show that we do, even OT stuff. We won't always be complimentary, this is an independent forum. But there is praise given where it is due.
The Mullet of G
5th November 2010, 01:01 AM
Regardless of how many regular posters there are on this forum it is quite well read and regularly turns out high up the ratings of search engines such as Google. Talk3G is also completely agnostic to any particular brand or manufacturer. On here we tell it as we see it. If it is good then it will feature. If not then it still may but we will not pay fawning compliments where they are not due.

That said, we have very correctly picked ip on Nokia's own staff feedback to the community and industry. It would be specious and inappropriate to ignore or disparage their valuable insight to the company that is Nokia. That other such fan getup forums will not hear a word against Nokia or their product is, to me, irrelevant. It is pure head in the sand, emperor's new clothes la-la land. Which is precisely why I do not gravitate to such forums for anything other than some technical fact. I'd rather not go there and get drawn into some rabid flameware with the locals. It really isn't that important in the scheme of things.

I wonder why it would seem to be so very wrong to be "massively in favour of ..." the current and leading technologies. And in respect to the various experiences, when held up against a Nokia, any current Nokia, both Android and iOS devices are superior across the piece. That may grate but it does not take away the simple fact that as things currently stand Nokia are not in the bidding on a like for like basis with these two.

I fully accept that not everyone in the world wants an Android or iOS style device, and that is where Nokia still excel, clearly.

As to the sales figures speaking for themselves, I'd agree completely. Nokia lost a lot of kudos with the N97. Some walked away permanently. Others are likely to give their beloved another chance. But each time Nokia turn out a turkey like the N97 they lose a little bit more credibility and brand reputation.

And then one could write a complete essay on Nokia's fragmented attempts at building a supporting ecosystem for their advanced handsets. But one won't :)


Cool story bro.

I bring your attention to this piece of data from the forum main page "Most users ever online was 295, 14th May 2009 at 09:10 PM" When was the last time this forum broke the 100 mark without there being an infestation of google spiders? :D

I'm not trying to mock anyone with these stats, but when you compare that to mobile forums that have at least 1500 members online at any given time, then which one do you suppose would give a better snapshot of how the masses felt in regards to mobile OS's? :)

Those other forums aren't full of regulars or moderators brow beating Symbian, they are too busy enjoying the fruits of an active community which the moderators help to foster. Again this isn't meant as a criticism its just a simple matter of numbers, the more people you have the more varied the input and opinions tend to be, this gives a better balance of positive and negative opinions on any given subject.

In summary the majority of people on here are currently pro Apple/Android and not so pro Nokia, regardless of impartiality or allegiances this means the overall tone of the forum echoes that sentiment. This isn't in any way a slight on yourselves or the members here, as I think you are all great people....even if you do mostly use Macs. But we have a limited number of opinions on here and if we all go in the same direction then I say that risks alienating others who don't share that opinion, as an equal opportunities troll this isn't my way. :)
Ben
5th November 2010, 11:12 AM
I'm not trying to mock anyone with these stats, but when you compare that to mobile forums that have at least 1500 members online at any given time, then which one do you suppose would give a better snapshot of how the masses felt in regards to mobile OS's? :)
Why do we give two hoots about how the masses feel? :S

We're here to call it like we see it. I'm well aware that there are other 'buzzing' forums out there; this one is very, very specific.

A lot of the discussion here is led by articles we pick up from the web. If you do feel strongly about changing the tone of the forum then you'll need to select articles that appeal to you and put them up so we can all discuss them.
Hands0n
5th November 2010, 11:12 AM
But the thing is we do not take any notice of the stats. People come and go on here, there have been plenty of short-term visitors, single-shot punters who were asking for help. Many of our articles on here are good and accurate reference pieces left uncorrupted by irrelevance. This is also one of the relatively few enthusiast forums where the ritual flamewars do not occur - admittedly these are heavily suppressed by the Mods, and rightly so.

Talk 3G does not set out to compare itself to the other mobile forums, regardless of how well they are perceived to be doing in raw visitor numbers. That, in itself, is not a sign of quality, merely popularity. I'm sure that if Talk 3G wanted to adopt a populist stance it could do so overnight. But I would contend that the quality would drop.

In respect to the call of "brow beating" Symbian - suffice be it to say that Symbian has left me unimpressed. Had it done otherwise then I would have been praising the Nokia N8 [specifically] for reviving the product as a whole. As it is the new OS may look different visually but it really is a touch of the emperor's new clothes. What is there that is so radically different, such a vast improvement over the preview versions? Not much, really. Nokia have the opportunity to fire me up, but it hasn't. I kind of wish that there was an Android build for the N8 as I'd love to own that particular item of hardware. Symbian^3 is the killer for me.

I recognise your summary that visitors may not feel this is the right forum for them to correspond and collaborate on. But again, Talk3G has not sought the populist vote. There is space in the forum ecosystem for small agile forums to exist. Talk3G is certainly agile and varied. It has also capably demonstrated it's impartiality by featuring a broad range of manufacturers, products, networks, technologies.

I think that the most revealing example of our willingness to acknowledge the good as well as the bad is how we've represented Three (formerly 3) on here. We have been positive, we have been absolutely scathing, but at all times we have demonstrated over and over again a willingness to re-visit the company, its products and services. We have consistently offered praise where it has been due. Equally, we have offered criticism where it is equally due. But above all, we have resisted the flaw of a lot of other forums to become radicalised for or against any particular network, manufacturer or their technology.

We're [apparently] happy to set the bar, if having a low population of visitors is what it takes.
hecatae
5th November 2010, 01:27 PM
this forum is about Quality, not Quantity, and the posts reflect that
The Mullet of G
5th November 2010, 06:20 PM
My point is this - due to a low number of regulars who all mostly share the same views this forum doesn't really paint an accurate picture of the wider population, I'm not really sure what point most of you are trying to make or debate, your kinda all over the shop. The numbers and stats were merely filler to highlight the point I was trying to make, don't get so hung up on them.

So to summarize the whole thing in easy to read format - I feel that Symbian is far from dead, the majority of people on Talk3G strongly disagree, but in the wider world it would seem the majority of people either agree with me or don't care. Make of it what you will. :)
getti
5th November 2010, 07:25 PM
Just because other sites do not have a go at Nokia does not mean they think they are good, they are just spending more time talking about better phones than the ones Nokia have put out to bother talking about Nokia now
Hands0n
5th November 2010, 08:43 PM
My point is this - due to a low number of regulars who all mostly share the same views this forum doesn't really paint an accurate picture of the wider population, I'm not really sure what point most of you are trying to make or debate, your kinda all over the shop.

Well, its probably best to leave it at that then :) Several issues were raised and I think each has been addressed on a point for point basis. However, just to recap; Talk3G does not set out to reflect or paint any picture at all really. It is here for people to express their thoughts and opinions on the technology, networks and services. As enthusiasts and experts the opinion [on here] seems to concur - which is significant - in many respects. We (including you), of course, disagree also, and express these disagreements in a reasoned and respectful manner, unlike very many of the other forum.

I would entirely respect your view that "Symbian is far from dead" - I would completely disagree with you, of course, and that is okay too. I am not persuaded otherwise by "the majority" [as you put it] agreeing with you or anyone else. I, and very many other people in the world, have moved on from Symbian-based devices, particularly at the so-called top end handset range. Developer commitment has amassed around iOS and Android, to lesser degrees RIM and Windows Mobile and latterly Windows Phone 7.

In the end, there is no right or wrong OS to buy into. You makes your choice and pays your money. The rest is history.
The Mullet of G
6th November 2010, 02:21 AM
Just because other sites do not have a go at Nokia does not mean they think they are good, they are just spending more time talking about better phones than the ones Nokia have put out to bother talking about Nokia now

Its actually quite the opposite, on most of the multi-platform sites I use the Nokia sections are generally the most active, the example I made earlier was the recently added Symbian^3 forum on one has almost as many posts as the iPhone forum despite the iPhone forum being much older, the Android forum only has half as many posts as the iPhone & Symbian^3 forums. Not everyone is singing the praises of Nokia and Symbian, but the vast majority seem to be enjoying all it has to offer including an extremely active modding scene.


Well, its probably best to leave it at that then :) Several issues were raised and I think each has been addressed on a point for point basis. However, just to recap; Talk3G does not set out to reflect or paint any picture at all really. It is here for people to express their thoughts and opinions on the technology, networks and services. As enthusiasts and experts the opinion [on here] seems to concur - which is significant - in many respects. We (including you), of course, disagree also, and express these disagreements in a reasoned and respectful manner, unlike very many of the other forum.

I would entirely respect your view that "Symbian is far from dead" - I would completely disagree with you, of course, and that is okay too. I am not persuaded otherwise by "the majority" [as you put it] agreeing with you or anyone else. I, and very many other people in the world, have moved on from Symbian-based devices, particularly at the so-called top end handset range. Developer commitment has amassed around iOS and Android, to lesser degrees RIM and Windows Mobile and latterly Windows Phone 7.

In the end, there is no right or wrong OS to buy into. You makes your choice and pays your money. The rest is history.


Agreed lots of points were raised and debated at length, mostly at length. :)

Likewise I respect your opinion that Symbian is dead, but alas find myself in disagreement. My aim in playing the majority card was to highlight that Symbian and indeed Symbian^3 has a thriving community of people out their who are genuinely excited about the future for Nokia and Symbian. So while it may have had its Vista moment, it has still managed to maintain this level of support with a range of devices that are nowhere close to where N8 and Symbian^3 are at, if those people were happy before then they are going to be over the moon with N8 and E7. :)

I tend to keep a fairly close eye on app and game development on mobile platforms, as I've been consuming a fair amount of them for about the last decade. My own observations are this - during the S60v5 era Symbian lost a lot of app developers due to the fact the overall hardware platform was far too restrictive, lack of a GPU being a major problem. They did still shift a lot of S60v5 handsets though and surprisingly quite a lot of stuff via the Ovi store despite most of it being pretty lackluster. N8 has already changed that and app developers who had abandoned Symbian are coming back, regardless of how people feel the N8 is actually packing pretty decent hardware with special props going to the GPU. As a result no longer is Symbian having to put up with java grade versions of popular iPhone games, it is getting versions that are equal. Maybe its just my own quaint view of things but I would argue that this is massively positive, if Nokia shift a decent amount of Symbian^3 hardware, then it becomes a pretty lucrative platform to develop for, more development = better apps and games = more hardware sales = more development and then on and on basically.
Hands0n
6th November 2010, 11:17 PM
They did still shift a lot of S60v5 handsets though and surprisingly quite a lot of stuff via the Ovi store despite most of it being pretty lackluster. N8 has already changed that and app developers who had abandoned Symbian are coming back, regardless of how people feel the N8 is actually packing pretty decent hardware with special props going to the GPU. As a result no longer is Symbian having to put up with java grade versions of popular iPhone games, it is getting versions that are equal. Maybe its just my own quaint view of things but I would argue that this is massively positive, if Nokia shift a decent amount of Symbian^3 hardware, then it becomes a pretty lucrative platform to develop for, more development = better apps and games = more hardware sales = more development and then on and on basically.

The N8 is going to have to shift in volumes similar to the iPhone 4 and the HTC Desire if it, as a solus device, is going to save Symbian^3 and Nokia's dented reputation at the sharp end of smartphones. And that is a very tall order considering that Apple have already shifted in excess of 14.1 million iPhone 4 by October 2010 (citation: http://www.ipodrepublic.com/iphone/impressive-q4-iphone-sales-figures/2010/10/19/ and http://tech.uk.msn.com/news/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=155021057 for example).

I would quite agree with your formula - I guess it all depends upon what actual number "... a decent amount of Symbian^3 hardware" really is. It probably doesn't have to be 14.1 million, although that would do Nokia a power of good for its new baby and OS. But it is a bit early to tell how well the N8 is selling - and I'm sure that Nokia will shout it from the rooftops if it is a big hit. Or they'll go conspicuously silent as they did with the N97 once they realised they had yet another turkey on their hands.

Nokia outsells the iPhone by 2:1 according to some reports ( http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/mobile-phone-news/nokia-outsells-iphone-by-2-to-1/ ) - but that is the entire portfolio against a very new entrant's two devices.

Commentators have pointed out that although Nokia still dominates the smartphone industry in terms of market share, Apple makes considerably more profit on its sales than other manufacturers, which may be a more important factor in the long run.

Quite.
The Mullet of G
7th November 2010, 01:12 AM
The N8 is going to have to shift in volumes similar to the iPhone 4 and the HTC Desire if it, as a solus device, is going to save Symbian^3 and Nokia's dented reputation at the sharp end of smartphones. And that is a very tall order considering that Apple have already shifted in excess of 14.1 million iPhone 4 by October 2010 (citation: http://www.ipodrepublic.com/iphone/impressive-q4-iphone-sales-figures/2010/10/19/ and http://tech.uk.msn.com/news/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=155021057 for example).

I would quite agree with your formula - I guess it all depends upon what actual number "... a decent amount of Symbian^3 hardware" really is. It probably doesn't have to be 14.1 million, although that would do Nokia a power of good for its new baby and OS. But it is a bit early to tell how well the N8 is selling - and I'm sure that Nokia will shout it from the rooftops if it is a big hit. Or they'll go conspicuously silent as they did with the N97 once they realised they had yet another turkey on their hands.

Nokia outsells the iPhone by 2:1 according to some reports ( http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/mobile-phone-news/nokia-outsells-iphone-by-2-to-1/ ) - but that is the entire portfolio against a very new entrant's two devices.


Quite.


This is actually where Nokia have a significant advantage over Apple, it doesn't have to shift 14.1 million N8's, it only has to shift 14.1 million Symbian^3 devices, and given that it shipped almost 27 million Symbian phones last quarter alone it isn't hard to see them doing so fairly quickly. As far as I'm aware all of the announced Symbian^3 devices share the N8's CPU + GPU combo so Symbian^3 devices are a level playing field for developers.

If you look at the chart I've attached you can see Nokia's smartphone sales are on a nice upward trend, and this is pre Symbian^3. I would expect them to easily ship 30 million phones next quarter, a fairly decent percentage of which will be Symbian^3 devices, the following quarter an even higher percentage again as more Symbian^3 devices hit the market. I expect N8 sales will be pretty decent, Nokia were already reporting pre-orders were higher than anything they have previously seen which can't be a bad thing.

The N97 was doomed from the outset as the hardware platform chosen for S60v5 was fundamentally bad, and while the CPU found in the current Symbian^3 platform is only a 680Mhz ARM 11, they have paired it with a pretty potent GPU which means we aren't going to see a repeat of the mediocre N97 anytime soon.

You can also look at that another way, despite the current range of Nokia smartphones being a non event they still outsell the iPhone at a rate of 2:1 imagine then what they could do with phones built on a decent hardware platform. I would also argue that Nokia doesn't need to make more profit than Apple, it just needs to make a decent profit like it has usually always done.
Hands0n
7th November 2010, 01:25 AM
Yea, but we're back to that good old disputed definition of what a smartphone really is. The Nokia chart you attached says "converged device" which basically means just about any mobile phone with, for example, a camera on it. And I really do have great difficulty stacking up the majority of Nokia against the likes of iOS and Android devices.

And it really is the Android platform that has to be watched. It has the greatest potential to harm Nokia significantly, as it is already digging in to RIM's sales. As Android commoditises we will see increasing complexity married to ever-reducing cost, and a speed of development that will tax Nokia with its ridiculously broad product range. Nokia needs a strategy, it cannot rely upon its old and tired formula despite previous and current sales.

So, in the face of Android, for example, Nokia has to make Symbian^3 work, and it has to persuade the developer community to pay [more] attention to it. The present and foreseeable future is mostly about apps and the generation of revenue via them. It [clearly] isn't about the pixel resolution of the embedded camera or the presence or lack of xenon or LED flash, or even the ability to run Adobe Flash etc. The rules of the game changed, and Nokia - I contend - didn't see it happen or were complacent and arrogant (I do believe that it was Nokia who said Android would be a non-event).


"We don't see this as a threat," a Nokia spokesman said.

URL: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0538989920071105
That was in 2007. I wonder if they still feel the same way about Android today.

I still feel that the Chinese, with Android, represent the greatest threat to Nokia. Huawei is a formidable industry and is one to watch very closely. Their telecommunications products are displacing Nokia (and others) in other areas already.

In terms of profits, Nokia has every need to make as much profit as it is able to. Failure to do so will see the financial markets, upon which it entirely depends, start to look elsewhere for their divvy. It really doesn't take very much at all. If market confidence is dented, as it has been, or lost the damage could be difficult to repair.
The Mullet of G
7th November 2010, 02:08 PM
The Nokia chart also says in brackets "Smartphones" which in this case would be any device running either Symbian or Maemo/MeeGo. There is no dispute about what a smartphone really is, if you are personally unsure then I would recommend reading the wiki page in my link bellow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

While there is a lot of information on the subject it really only boils down to 2 main points, both of which are discussed in the first paragraph of that wiki article, these points are in regard to the OS and its ability to run code designed for that OS, this has been the case since the dawn of smartphones. The confusion only begins when people start inserting stuff about hardware spec or "oh well its not as good as that other phone" none of these are points that define a smartphone, they are merely personal opinions. A car doesn't suddenly become a motorbike just because you decide number of wheels and steering method aren't defining factors.

I agree Android is a platform that has to be watched, in the longrun I think its pretty common knowledge that its predicted to unseat Symbian sometime around 2014 if things continue as they are, but as of now Symbian is activating close to a million more devices per week with a bland portfolio.

While I agree that apps are massively important, don't be so quick to dismiss the importance of megapixels or a Xenon flash, a lot of people still buy phones based on these features, in fact its one of the first questions I hear people ask when they see a new phone, people like numbers that they can easily compare between other products.

As to Nokia not seeing Android as a threat, maybe they meant in Italy or Spain or even Germany? As Android is a bit of a non event there. :)

I'm not saying Nokia doesn't have to make profit, I'm just saying it doesn't need to make more profit than Apple to be successful.
Hands0n
7th November 2010, 02:22 PM
The Nokia chart also says in brackets "Smartphones" which in this case would be any device running either Symbian or Maemo/MeeGo. There is no dispute about what a smartphone really is, if you are personally unsure then I would recommend reading the wiki page in my link bellow.

On the arm of the settee that I am sitting on at this precise moment I have a Nokia 6303c (RM-443). Alongside it I also have an Apple iPhone 4 32GB and a Google Nexus One. According to Nokia the 6303c is a Smartphone. I beg to differ. And so, I contend, would every single person on the street that you offered this comparison of devices to. One is a right royal pain in the posterior to do anything much other than make calls and send texts. Trying to use its "Office" tools is second only to rubbing rusty spoons in one's eyes. The other two are as slick and efficient to use as it gets, given the current state of the art. But with Nokia handsets the vast majority of their range falls into the former camp.

Perhaps the [purist] clinical definition of Smartphone is indeed as you have linked to. But much more importantly, from a buying public's point of view, the colloquial view is more significant to a company's brand and success.

And so, perhaps, there are smartphones and there are Smartphones. :)
miffed
7th November 2010, 03:27 PM
Wikipedia ???

.... Sorry , I have to go adjust myself !!

Cool story bro ! , no really it is .......
The Mullet of G
7th November 2010, 10:54 PM
On the arm of the settee that I am sitting on at this precise moment I have a Nokia 6303c (RM-443). Alongside it I also have an Apple iPhone 4 32GB and a Google Nexus One. According to Nokia the 6303c is a Smartphone. I beg to differ. And so, I contend, would every single person on the street that you offered this comparison of devices to. One is a right royal pain in the posterior to do anything much other than make calls and send texts. Trying to use its "Office" tools is second only to rubbing rusty spoons in one's eyes. The other two are as slick and efficient to use as it gets, given the current state of the art. But with Nokia handsets the vast majority of their range falls into the former camp.

Perhaps the [purist] clinical definition of Smartphone is indeed as you have linked to. But much more importantly, from a buying public's point of view, the colloquial view is more significant to a company's brand and success.

And so, perhaps, there are smartphones and there are Smartphones. :)

Can you post a link to where Nokia or anyone else has ever claimed that the 6303c is a smartphone? It runs on Series 40, this is Nokia's feature phone OS and shouldn't in any way be confused with Series 60, Symbian or any sort of smartphone. With that in mind its hardly fair to compare a budget priced feature phone with an iPhone 4 or a Nexus One, I would contend that most people on the street would also spot this obvious gaff. ;)

The core definition of what makes a smartphone isn't going to be changing anytime soon, and even if it does those changes are unlikely to ever exclude any phone running Symbian. :)

I would urge you to actually try Symbian, as its kinda hard to judge an entire platform based on your experiences with a 6303 which doesn't even run Symbian. :D




Wikipedia ???

.... Sorry , I have to go adjust myself !!

Cool story bro ! , no really it is .......

Maybe after you finish adjusting yourself you can provide an alternative definition that contradicts the wiki article? That really would be a cool story brah. :)
Hands0n
7th November 2010, 11:47 PM
I would urge you to actually try Symbian, as its kinda hard to judge an entire platform based on your experiences with a 6303 which doesn't even run Symbian. :D

No need to. I came away from Symbian S60 after the N95 having been using it since the N80 (which I actually quite liked at the time but got a rather bad press). I never bothered with the N95 8GB as it was more of a point release than a real upgrade. After that, nothing S60 that Nokia produced had any interest for me as I had already transitioned on to the iPhone (2G) platform having exhausted all of the capability of the S60 of the day. I had been trying to locate a suitable handset that was capable of doing pretty much all of what a current-day iOS or Android could way back in the days of the N95. The absolute best that could be attained then was either a Windows Mobile PDA Bluetoothed to the N95 or using Joiku Hotspot to exploit the WiFi capability. But there wasn't a single device that I could hold in my hand that would get even close to what I wanted to do. The S60 browser was atrocious, still is. Yes, Opera or Opera Mini were alternatives, but even then, the ability to handle web presentation of the day was pathetically weak.

So you see, I have been a practical user of Nokia product in general and Symbian in both its S60 and UIQ guises for simply ages. I visit the technology with each iteration and find it as lacking and wanting as previously. The menu structure is hideously unintuitive. I am, probably, well qualified to be termed a "technology geek" and like to do my share of hacking around the toys. But when it comes to going about my daily business I want something that works simply and simply works. Symbian, even in the guise of Symbian^3, does not meet that criteria still! Frustrating or what? Either there is a fundamental weakness in the core Symbian architecture or Nokia haven't got a the beginnings of a clue as to UI design and functionality.

The thing is, what is likely to change with Symbian, be it Symbian^3 or indeed Symbian^4 (QT (http://qt.nokia.com/products/platform/symbian/)) at the hands of Nokia? If they don't know what they're doing wrong now, they'll only carry on into the future doing exactly the same thing. They can skin it up all they like, as in the N8, but underneath the same clunkiness exists.

I am ready and prepared to like [to use] Symbian but it has at least got to come half way towards me. I am not prepared to make all of the adjustments when there is so much better to be had from at least two, possibly three, ready sources of alternative.

The [mobile] world is moving on, and Nokia have pretty much stagnated - mostly through their own factionalising and the creation of fifedoms that compete and obstruct each other, as stated by their own execs which this topic is about. Other businesses do not suffer such internal conflict and are therefore able to produce not only more coherent product but also an entire ecosystem to support the product. Like it or hate it, Apple have underpinned the iOS devices with a superbly capable and efficient ecosystem, as has Google. Meanwhile, Nokia flounder around still making gaffe after gaffe with theirs. It is as if they cannot make up their minds what they want to be.

There is an endless supply of critics who will slate Apple and Steve Jobs - mostly just for the sake of it and with little to no substance other than blind prejudice. But that organisation has a very strong leadership with a very strong strategy and direction. There are no fifedoms, there are no factions, everyone is "on plan". And that is how they have been able to deliver the goods. Google is similar, as are Microsoft to varying degrees.

I've mentioned the Chinese countless times - not in this topic alone - and they operate to a very similar regime. As do the other Far East nation's manufacturers. But with Nokia, as testified by their own, it is like herding cats. That just will not do.

Maybe, just maybe, the new CEO of Nokia can dismantle the rot that is their own corporate structure and bring in the kind of leadership, direction, strategy strengths that exist in Apple. Forget copying Apple's product, get Nokia straight first and the rest is more than likely to follow. Can the Finnish cope with such a radical change, for it needs to happen rapidly.
Hands0n
8th November 2010, 12:02 AM
Can you post a link to where Nokia or anyone else has ever claimed that the 6303c is a smartphone?

That could be a bit specious - http://qt.nokia.com/products - looking around the Nokia website there are 149 references to the word "smartphone" most of them are repetitious of a single product (i.e. the N8, N97, C7 etc...), making it difficult to tell how many Nokia-defined smartphones there really are.

That said - there are other references to "Nokia 6303 smartphone" to be seen http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&biw=1297&bih=718&q=%22Nokia+6303+smartphone%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4444a72bd3a84a2d

Like I said, there are smartphones and there are Smartphones. I'm still left wondering if those Nokia figures are for what are truly such devices or if the likes of the S40 are chucked in for good measure. Because given the few (by Nokia's own defining title/claim) smartphones I am highly suspicious of the stats that are being bandied around about how many smartphones Nokia really does sell to the global market. They make the claim, I remain to be convinced because the transparency is simply not there.
The Mullet of G
8th November 2010, 12:48 AM
No need to. I came away from Symbian S60 after the N95 having been using it since the N80 (which I actually quite liked at the time but got a rather bad press). I never bothered with the N95 8GB as it was more of a point release than a real upgrade. After that, nothing S60 that Nokia produced had any interest for me as I had already transitioned on to the iPhone (2G) platform having exhausted all of the capability of the S60 of the day. I had been trying to locate a suitable handset that was capable of doing pretty much all of what a current-day iOS or Android could way back in the days of the N95. The absolute best that could be attained then was either a Windows Mobile PDA Bluetoothed to the N95 or using Joiku Hotspot to exploit the WiFi capability. But there wasn't a single device that I could hold in my hand that would get even close to what I wanted to do. The S60 browser was atrocious, still is. Yes, Opera or Opera Mini were alternatives, but even then, the ability to handle web presentation of the day was pathetically weak.

So you see, I have been a practical user of Nokia product in general and Symbian in both its S60 and UIQ guises for simply ages. I visit the technology with each iteration and find it as lacking and wanting as previously. The menu structure is hideously unintuitive. I am, probably, well qualified to be termed a "technology geek" and like to do my share of hacking around the toys. But when it comes to going about my daily business I want something that works simply and simply works. Symbian, even in the guise of Symbian^3, does not meet that criteria still! Frustrating or what? Either there is a fundamental weakness in the core Symbian architecture or Nokia haven't got a the beginnings of a clue as to UI design and functionality.

The thing is, what is likely to change with Symbian, be it Symbian^3 or indeed Symbian^4 (QT (http://qt.nokia.com/products/platform/symbian/)) at the hands of Nokia? If they don't know what they're doing wrong now, they'll only carry on into the future doing exactly the same thing. They can skin it up all they like, as in the N8, but underneath the same clunkiness exists.

I am ready and prepared to like [to use] Symbian but it has at least got to come half way towards me. I am not prepared to make all of the adjustments when there is so much better to be had from at least two, possibly three, ready sources of alternative.

The [mobile] world is moving on, and Nokia have pretty much stagnated - mostly through their own factionalising and the creation of fifedoms that compete and obstruct each other, as stated by their own execs which this topic is about. Other businesses do not suffer such internal conflict and are therefore able to produce not only more coherent product but also an entire ecosystem to support the product. Like it or hate it, Apple have underpinned the iOS devices with a superbly capable and efficient ecosystem, as has Google. Meanwhile, Nokia flounder around still making gaffe after gaffe with theirs. It is as if they cannot make up their minds what they want to be.

There is an endless supply of critics who will slate Apple and Steve Jobs - mostly just for the sake of it and with little to no substance other than blind prejudice. But that organisation has a very strong leadership with a very strong strategy and direction. There are no fifedoms, there are no factions, everyone is "on plan". And that is how they have been able to deliver the goods. Google is similar, as are Microsoft to varying degrees.

I've mentioned the Chinese countless times - not in this topic alone - and they operate to a very similar regime. As do the other Far East nation's manufacturers. But with Nokia, as testified by their own, it is like herding cats. That just will not do.

Maybe, just maybe, the new CEO of Nokia can dismantle the rot that is their own corporate structure and bring in the kind of leadership, direction, strategy strengths that exist in Apple. Forget copying Apple's product, get Nokia straight first and the rest is more than likely to follow. Can the Finnish cope with such a radical change, for it needs to happen rapidly.

Going from the N80 to the N95 is only really 2 phones, I made the exact same jump. I've personally been using Symbian and in turn its descendant EPOC since the early 90's, I've owned a pretty wide selection of Symbian devices over the years since then.

As someone who has used a fair amount of Symbian phones I don't find the menu system to be a problem at all, things are exactly where I expect them to be. I'm also revoking your "technology geek" badge on the grounds of you mistaking the 6303c as being a smartphone. :D

Again while I completely respect your opinions and if you feel Symbian isn't for you then thats cool, but this doesn't mean that everyone else agrees. I have attempted to demonstrate that Nokia and Symbian still have a lot of happy customers, who also seem pretty positive about Symbian^3, I feel I have done this pretty successfully but at this point we're going round in circles.

There is also an endless supply of critics who will slate Nokia - mostly just for the sake of it, its the price they pay for being top dog, I'm sure Microsoft can relate to this.

It is clear that we are never going to agree on the Symbian issue, even if Symbian^3 devices sell in substantial numbers it is unlikely that you will shift from your view that Symbian is dead, so I feel it would probably be a good idea if we both just adopt a "wait and see approach" If Nokia don't sell many Symbian^3 devices I will happily accept that I was mistaken and Symbian is dead, if the opposite happens I would hope that you would do the same in return. :)
The Mullet of G
8th November 2010, 12:59 AM
That could be a bit specious - http://qt.nokia.com/products - looking around the Nokia website there are 149 references to the word "smartphone" most of them are repetitious of a single product (i.e. the N8, N97, C7 etc...), making it difficult to tell how many Nokia-defined smartphones there really are.

That said - there are other references to "Nokia 6303 smartphone" to be seen http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&biw=1297&bih=718&q=%22Nokia+6303+smartphone%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4444a72bd3a84a2d

Like I said, there are smartphones and there are Smartphones. I'm still left wondering if those Nokia figures are for what are truly such devices or if the likes of the S40 are chucked in for good measure. Because given the few (by Nokia's own defining title/claim) smartphones I am highly suspicious of the stats that are being bandied around about how many smartphones Nokia really does sell to the global market. They make the claim, I remain to be convinced because the transparency is simply not there.

There may be a 149 mentions of the word smartphone on the Nokia website, but nowhere does it say that the 6303 is a smartphone. Its pretty clear how many Nokia defined smartphones there are as they are the ones running Symbian or Maemo/MeeGo, the other ones running S40 or S30 are not smartphones by any stretch of the definition.

Also that Google link returned 918 results, I'd get more hits if I put Motorola Startac smartphone, its unlikely anyone would actually use that to claim it was a smartphone though. :D

If you can provide any evidence that Nokia isn't being transparent with its sales figures then I'd like to see it. Its one thing to point the finger at Apple and Android detractors, but if your going to do exactly the same thing in regards to Nokia then it really doesn't carry as much weight. It also demonstrates that it doesn't matter how much proof you see you will simply claim that it isn't happening or you'll move the goal posts. :rolleyes:
Hands0n
8th November 2010, 09:28 PM
Going from the N80 to the N95 is only really 2 phones, I made the exact same jump. I've personally been using Symbian and in turn its descendant EPOC since the early 90's, I've owned a pretty wide selection of Symbian devices over the years since then.

Ah, I mislead you perhaps. I have had a few of the Symbian S60 stuff, I've previously used a fair few, to include the 6680 which was a bit of a classic in its day - possibly the best before the N95. Somewhere along the line I had a flirtation with the Motorola A1000 (I think) which was the first PDA-style touchscreen UIQ device and fired up my interest in what was to come when the iPhone arrived. But it wasn't exactly great. In fact it was a bit rubbish, even for UIQ. I was getting on better with my HP iPAQ though - the apps in the WinMo stable were better for me as they were at that time.

The first versions of Symbian on the N95 were plagued with problems. It was only when, iirc, v12 arrived that Nokia started to get things right.

But moving away from Symbian was a refreshing experience for me. The re-visit with the N8 was not an inspiring experience, I can tell you. Fair enough, this is the first released iteration of Symbian^3 and it can only get better, can't it? :D
Hands0n
8th November 2010, 09:32 PM
If you can provide any evidence that Nokia isn't being transparent with its sales figures then I'd like to see it. Its one thing to point the finger at Apple and Android detractors, but if your going to do exactly the same thing in regards to Nokia then it really doesn't carry as much weight. It also demonstrates that it doesn't matter how much proof you see you will simply claim that it isn't happening or you'll move the goal posts. :rolleyes:

Simple really - Nokia may well claim to sell a gazillion smartphones but there would be a lot more credibility attached to the claim if Nokia were to be transparent and supply a breakdown of how many of each model it sold in a given period. That the as simple a transparency as would be necessary. But unless you know where such transparency exists and can provide the detail I will have to go by what I see, and that is Nokia's lack of transparency around their figures. Put the money one the table.

That, I contend, is in no way moving goalposts.
Ben
9th November 2010, 05:15 PM
The Register continues its look at why Symbian has fallen on harder times: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/09/symbian_developers_mailbag/
The Mullet of G
10th November 2010, 02:18 PM
Ah, I mislead you perhaps. I have had a few of the Symbian S60 stuff, I've previously used a fair few, to include the 6680 which was a bit of a classic in its day - possibly the best before the N95. Somewhere along the line I had a flirtation with the Motorola A1000 (I think) which was the first PDA-style touchscreen UIQ device and fired up my interest in what was to come when the iPhone arrived. But it wasn't exactly great. In fact it was a bit rubbish, even for UIQ. I was getting on better with my HP iPAQ though - the apps in the WinMo stable were better for me as they were at that time.

The first versions of Symbian on the N95 were plagued with problems. It was only when, iirc, v12 arrived that Nokia started to get things right.

But moving away from Symbian was a refreshing experience for me. The re-visit with the N8 was not an inspiring experience, I can tell you. Fair enough, this is the first released iteration of Symbian^3 and it can only get better, can't it? :D


I was never a fan of the 6680 I preferred the more rugged and manly 6630 with its giant fisheye camera lens and superior performance. My mate had some sort of Motorola UIQ phone, I forget the model number but it was pretty terrible too, I think thats pretty standard for UIQ though. I own an old i-mate running WinMo, if I was forced to use it as a main phone I'd probably tether it to a brick and go hunting for deep water, probably didn't help I'd flashed an OS version onto it that was beyond the hardware. :D

I personally didn't experience many problems with the first few firmware releases for N95, but I know others did, its always been the way with Nokia. I would expect the N8 to follow a similar trend, they are still managing to push out updates for the 5800 that improve performance and add features, so the N8 should have plenty of scope.


Simple really - Nokia may well claim to sell a gazillion smartphones but there would be a lot more credibility attached to the claim if Nokia were to be transparent and supply a breakdown of how many of each model it sold in a given period. That the as simple a transparency as would be necessary. But unless you know where such transparency exists and can provide the detail I will have to go by what I see, and that is Nokia's lack of transparency around their figures. Put the money one the table.

That, I contend, is in no way moving goalposts.


Are other platforms providing a breakdown of how many of each model has been sold? When Nokia say they have sold xx amount of smartphones, that means they have sold xx amount of phones running Symbian or Maemo/MeeGo it really couldn't be any more transparent. Even if they did provide such a breakdown I feel you would only look for another direction to move the goalposts, so I contend that you are simply moving the goalposts. If you can provide a breakdown of all the other companies phone sales per model, then I will accept that this isn't the case. :)



The Register continues its look at why Symbian has fallen on harder times: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/09/symbian_developers_mailbag/

You know something is a bit fishy when the first line mentions Apple. :rolleyes: