[Ben]

http://www.trustedreviews.com/mobile-phones/news/2009/12/04/Nokia-Demos-New-Symbian-OS-With-Multi-touch/p1

The pictures look pretty :) But will it be good? A wait-and-see, I think.

[The Mullet of G]

I watched the Nokia presentation about it, and it definitely sounds like they are heading in the right direction. If they manage to deliver on the promises then there might just be life in the old dog yet. :)

[miffed]

Why do Nokia do this ?

Why do they insist on bleating on about things long before they do them ?

Just launch a Multi-touch handset FFS Nokia !! Don't announce it all first otherwise you'll just frustrate everyone with your delays , then disappoint them with you buggy half baked effort :(

[chagle]

I fancy getting a HTC Hero myself as 'Play thing' - I need a new toy! ;)

[chaslam]

The thing with Nokia and S60 is that no one has any trust in it anymore because of Nseries phone after nseries phone. Has anyone here recently used an Eseries phones? There is hardly any bugs in them whatsoever, but I just cant see why they cant make an Nseries Symbian device like an Eseries device!

Lets hope Nokia move over to Maemo for their touch devices and work on symbian for a while and get it up to scratch before they release their next Nseries Symbian phone.

[Ben]

Indeed, the E65 is an incredible handset, but then ours (it's a work phone) is only really used for calls and texts. But at least it does those well - my N95 8GB used to irritate me for texts, the OS was just too slow and got bogged down too easily.

Why the same level of refinement can't go into NSeries is beyond me. You're spot on - there have been too many bad NSeries handsets, I think a lot of us gave up along the way.

[The Mullet of G]

Its probably worth noting that almost 40% of smartphones sold in Q3 this year had a Nokia badge on them, so its probably a bit soon to write them off. With that in mind its easy to see how Nokia got themselves into the situation they now find themselves in, but considering they still dominate the market I wouldn't say its a bad place to be.

[miffed]

Its probably worth noting that almost 40% of smartphones sold in Q3 this year had a Nokia badge on them, so its probably a bit soon to write them off. With that in mind its easy to see how Nokia got themselves into the situation they now find themselves in, but considering they still dominate the market I wouldn't say its a bad place to be.


This does raise the question "What denotes a Smartphone ?" - I am guessing the criteria here (for Nokia) is simply everything running S60 !

....So really we are talking Apples & Oranges ?

[The Mullet of G]

This does raise the question "What denotes a Smartphone ?" - I am guessing the criteria here (for Nokia) is simply everything running S60 !

....So really we are talking Apples & Oranges ?

Eh? :confused:

No not really. If you want to debate what denotes a smartphone, then good luck with that, there is no industry standard definition for a smartphone.

With that in mind the market share data says Nokia has almost a 40% share of the smartphone market, this is a fact backed up by actual data. What defines or doesn't define a smartphone is very much an opinion, debating an opinion against facts would be apples and oranges. :)

[miffed]

Well look a couple of posts up - Ben has an E65 in his office for Calls and SMS's - A marketing company that were based at my place had an S60 device of some description with which they diverted to calls to when they were busy , so it was simply an answerphone ! My wifes friend has one of the myriad of S60 devices , but she simply went shopping for a phone that fits in her handbag
What I am trying to say is , yes , 40% of all smartphones sold may have a Nokia badge on them , but this means relatively little in terms of the devices appeal to the market - An interesting figure would be what percentage of people that went shopping for a smartphone came home with a Nokia ? I suspect this figure would be very different from the 40% mentioned

The figure is misleading IMO because a lot of those 40% represent what are in reality "dumb" phones in everyone else's eyes but Nokia's !

[The Mullet of G]

Cool story bro. :)

Still not sure how its relevant though, I merely stated that almost 40% of all smartphones sold have a Nokia badge on them, this isn't an opinion its fact backed up with figures. Your argument is based on how those phones are used, this isn't an argument that I was making or have any interest in. Also your argument is so one sided that I can't actually work out if your being serious or trying to troll me.

Just out of interest, if capturing 40% of any given market doesn't demonstrate your products appeal to said market, then what does? :)

[Hands0n]

Nokia's 40% is [possibly] accidental but it could just be by design. I'm not sure whether to believe that Nokia were that clever in the first place. But for sure, with the myriad of handset designs they have out there, with S40 and S60 embedded, they were almost bound to capture a large slice of the market.

There are those who are so loyal to Nokia as a brand, such is its power, that they'll keep coming back for more and not even consider anything else.

I think we're still at too early a stage for the masses to gravitate to "smartphones" simply because they're that. I often encounter complete bewilderment as I try [not very often] to explain the merits of my iPhone or Android handset as I use them. I seem to be so way off their field of reference that I may as well be speaking Urdu to them.

But often it is those same people who come to me for information "on the hoof" when out and about. They're bemused that I whip up Google, get the answer and pop it all way back in my pocket when done. However, it does not occur to any of them that they could actually benefit from the same technology. They link that same technology, and its use, to people like me who are (in their eyes) as if from another planet altogether with the way we use this stuff!

I just roll with it these days :)

[The Mullet of G]

Nokia's 40% is [possibly] accidental but it could just be by design. I'm not sure whether to believe that Nokia were that clever in the first place. But for sure, with the myriad of handset designs they have out there, with S40 and S60 embedded, they were almost bound to capture a large slice of the market.

There are those who are so loyal to Nokia as a brand, such is its power, that they'll keep coming back for more and not even consider anything else.

I think we're still at too early a stage for the masses to gravitate to "smartphones" simply because they're that. I often encounter complete bewilderment as I try [not very often] to explain the merits of my iPhone or Android handset as I use them. I seem to be so way off their field of reference that I may as well be speaking Urdu to them.

But often it is those same people who come to me for information "on the hoof" when out and about. They're bemused that I whip up Google, get the answer and pop it all way back in my pocket when done. However, it does not occur to any of them that they could actually benefit from the same technology. They link that same technology, and its use, to people like me who are (in their eyes) as if from another planet altogether with the way we use this stuff!

I just roll with it these days :)


Nokia have dominated the smartphone market for a long time, I don't think thats an accident, its the result of years of hard work. Nokia have been producing smartphones for a long time, its easy to look back now with what we have and say a lot of them weren't that good, but in there day they were well ahead of the curve and the competition.

When it comes to buying a phone you have to realise that your needs aren't the same as the next persons, and while you might not consider Nokia to be the best choice, for many it still is. I also find that most companies have a loyal band of customers, if I'm being honest Apple zealots are among the worst.

Those same people that you talk about are the same people that ask questions on forums that could easily have been answered in seconds by google, they are nothing new. Unfortunately it doesn't matter how smart a phone is, or how easy you make things for people, you simply can't change human nature, people would rather ask dumb questions than try to find out things for themselves.

We here are a minority and a very small one at that, miffed paints a one sided story about S60 phones being dumb phones that aren't being used as a smartphone should be, but out there in the real world most smartphones suffer the same fate. Out of all the iPhone users I know in real life, only my equally nerdy mate actually uses his to any degree, most of my other mates have never used the app store or the internet, one used google maps a couple of times, but besides that talk and text. The truth is most people simply do not need a smartphone, this fact is unlikely to change for quite some time, in the meantime a lot of smartphones will be sold to people who aren't ever going to use them to any extent.

[Ben]

Taking personal experience and hearsay out of it, there was research that quite clearly showed Apple iPhone customers are far more likely to browse the Internet and use other 'advanced' features than owners of other handsets.

Nokia have pushed S60 onto a very broad spectrum of handsets. And bravo, all modern mobile phones should have 'smartphone' capabilities. But S60 is hardly an 'accessible' smartphone OS.

That said, one of the few things it does relatively well is, ironically, Java. Given that the core FishText client is Java, I solute them for that :) RIM and many other manufacturers have absolutely horrific implementations.

[Hands0n]

Nokia have dominated the smartphone market for a long time, I don't think thats an accident, its the result of years of hard work. Nokia have been producing smartphones for a long time, its easy to look back now with what we have and say a lot of them weren't that good, but in there day they were well ahead of the curve and the competition.

When it comes to buying a phone you have to realise that your needs aren't the same as the next persons, and while you might not consider Nokia to be the best choice, for many it still is. I also find that most companies have a loyal band of customers, if I'm being honest Apple zealots are among the worst.

Those same people that you talk about are the same people that ask questions on forums that could easily have been answered in seconds by google, they are nothing new. Unfortunately it doesn't matter how smart a phone is, or how easy you make things for people, you simply can't change human nature, people would rather ask dumb questions than try to find out things for themselves.

We here are a minority and a very small one at that, miffed paints a one sided story about S60 phones being dumb phones that aren't being used as a smartphone should be, but out there in the real world most smartphones suffer the same fate. Out of all the iPhone users I know in real life, only my equally nerdy mate actually uses his to any degree, most of my other mates have never used the app store or the internet, one used google maps a couple of times, but besides that talk and text. The truth is most people simply do not need a smartphone, this fact is unlikely to change for quite some time,n the meantime a lot of smartphones will be sold to people who aren't ever going to use them to any extent.

Yea, I figured that Nokia has design intentions to succeed. And by saturating the market with literally dozens of models of varying capability they were bound to make a significant impact. Had they taken the line of Motorola or Sony Ericsson they may well not have built up quite the same market share. But that is wild speculation - the fact is they are where they are.

My choice of handset did once include Nokia as a first choice - I'd look elsewhere only if Nokia had nothing that fit my requirements. And for a very long time Nokia scored number one. But I do think that the N95, Nokia's setting of my expectation, and their actual delivery cast the very first shadow over their product for me.

I held on to the N95, which was as popular then as the iPhone is today - every man, his dog, sister and uncle had one. I was waiting for something better to arrive, and the N95 8GB wasn't it. In fact, nothing was. Nothing could make me forget Nokia's promise of a computer in my pocket - I wanted one. And it was only Apple that delivered one, eventually, even though I had significant doubt at the time.

I know this is all very personal - but I am able to identify with a lot of my peers, although to be fair I do work with a lot of nerds, geeks and otherwise very extraordinary and intelligent people. They all have similar tales to tell.

I know what you mean about those who have, but cannot use, the technology. I see enough of those to make me cringe daily.

I think that the thing with S60 as compared with OS X, Android and [dare I say] Windows Mobile 6+ is that it has become weak by comparison. Perhaps even Nokia feel that after the near-disaster that was the N97. Do they now look to Maemo to save their bacon?

Yet still [ returning to topic ] Nokia look to stretch Symbian S60 even further, trying to leverage it to take on the new kids on the block. Meanwile it falls ever further behind in terms of its UI and usability. New expectations are being set by the rival OS, including Maemo itself.

So, in truth, what long term future for Symbian and Nokia? Time alone will tell.

[The Mullet of G]

Taking personal experience and hearsay out of it, there was research that quite clearly showed Apple iPhone customers are far more likely to browse the Internet and use other 'advanced' features than owners of other handsets.

Nokia have pushed S60 onto a very broad spectrum of handsets. And bravo, all modern mobile phones should have 'smartphone' capabilities. But S60 is hardly an 'accessible' smartphone OS.

That said, one of the few things it does relatively well is, ironically, Java. Given that the core FishText client is Java, I solute them for that :) RIM and many other manufacturers have absolutely horrific implementations.

Yeah I really should abandon my real world observations and instead rely on data from random internet research, everyone knows random questionaires produce more accurate data than real world observation. :D



Yea, I figured that Nokia has design intentions to succeed. And by saturating the market with literally dozens of models of varying capability they were bound to make a significant impact. Had they taken the line of Motorola or Sony Ericsson they may well not have built up quite the same market share. But that is wild speculation - the fact is they are where they are.

My choice of handset did once include Nokia as a first choice - I'd look elsewhere only if Nokia had nothing that fit my requirements. And for a very long time Nokia scored number one. But I do think that the N95, Nokia's setting of my expectation, and their actual delivery cast the very first shadow over their product for me.

I held on to the N95, which was as popular then as the iPhone is today - every man, his dog, sister and uncle had one. I was waiting for something better to arrive, and the N95 8GB wasn't it. In fact, nothing was. Nothing could make me forget Nokia's promise of a computer in my pocket - I wanted one. And it was only Apple that delivered one, eventually, even though I had significant doubt at the time.

I know this is all very personal - but I am able to identify with a lot of my peers, although to be fair I do work with a lot of nerds, geeks and otherwise very extraordinary and intelligent people. They all have similar tales to tell.

I know what you mean about those who have, but cannot use, the technology. I see enough of those to make me cringe daily.

I think that the thing with S60 as compared with OS X, Android and [dare I say] Windows Mobile 6+ is that it has become weak by comparison. Perhaps even Nokia feel that after the near-disaster that was the N97. Do they now look to Maemo to save their bacon?

Yet still [ returning to topic ] Nokia look to stretch Symbian S60 even further, trying to leverage it to take on the new kids on the block. Meanwile it falls ever further behind in terms of its UI and usability. New expectations are being set by the rival OS, including Maemo itself.

So, in truth, what long term future for Symbian and Nokia? Time alone will tell.

I would agree that Nokia didn't really move forward after the N95 in the way that I would have liked, but again thats the problem, as phone geeks we want things that the average user has no interest in, this is backed up by the fact Nokia still sold a shed load of phones post N95.

I really don't see the iPhone as being a computer in your pocket, its closer to being a feature phone than anything else. In fact I consider the trusty old Nokia 7650 to be more of a computer than iPhone is. The iPhone presents the illusion of being a computer, but in reality its a walled garden filled with smoke and mirrors, there is no file browser, no capability to connect to other devices via bluetooth or any other means, no ability to use mp3 as ringtones, or even change simple things like themes etc, you can't install 3rd party apps unless you use app store, or jailbreak and use Rock/Cydia which is full of apps that are embarrassingly poor, you can't even get music onto the thing without using itunes or some other alternative. I'm not sure if using Macs for too long has eroded your vision of what a computer is, but seriously thats about as far from my vision of a computer as you could possibly get.

Don't get me wrong I have a 3rd gen ipod touch, and I like a lot of things about it, but after about a week its limitations had bored me to tears, I don't consider a phone or device that holds your hand so tightly to be very smart.

[Ben]

Yeah I really should abandon my real world observations and instead rely on data from random internet research, everyone knows random questionaires produce more accurate data than real world observation. :D
Of course real-world observations are important, but they will always be subject to an individual's environment and bias. Polls and surveys of a wider audience are, of course, subject to interpretation, but can give a much more accurate 'bigger picture'.


I don't consider a phone or device that holds your hand so tightly to be very smart.
I think you're wrong there; if the phone can make 'advanced' tasks like web browsing, email, calendaring etc very easy then it's definitely smart. A smart phone shouldn't require a smart user.

For the adventurous, a jail-broken iPhone is essentially a UNIX computer. No, it's not an official feature (and yes, an 'advanced mode' would be nice), but it's so easy that anyone 'smart' enough to make use of such functionality will find it trivial to perform.

More hand-holding is precisely what the new multi-touch interface for S60 is going to need.

[The Mullet of G]

Of course real-world observations are important, but they will always be subject to an individual's environment and bias. Polls and surveys of a wider audience are, of course, subject to interpretation, but can give a much more accurate 'bigger picture'.


I think you're wrong there; if the phone can make 'advanced' tasks like web browsing, email, calendaring etc very easy then it's definitely smart. A smart phone shouldn't require a smart user.

For the adventurous, a jail-broken iPhone is essentially a UNIX computer. No, it's not an official feature (and yes, an 'advanced mode' would be nice), but it's so easy that anyone 'smart' enough to make use of such functionality will find it trivial to perform.

More hand-holding is precisely what the new multi-touch interface for S60 is going to need.

A feature phone makes all of those things easy but you wouldn't call it a smartphone, if it can't do basic things like send stuff via bluetooth, or allow even basic customisation then I don't consider it to be very smart.

Well played, you managed to use the words adventurous and UNIX in a sentence that actually kinda worked. Meanwhile back in Windows land where 96% of the population of planet Earth resides UNIX is, well to put it bluntly about as exciting as My Little Pony. :D

There is no doubting that S60 needs some major work to make it more user friendly, but I doubt Nokia will ever turn S60 into a carebear OS that stops you from performing even basic tasks. :)

[Hands0n]

I'm not sure if using Macs for too long has eroded your vision of what a computer is, but seriously thats about as far from my vision of a computer as you could possibly get.

Ah, well, you see, I use all of Mac and Windows (XP and 7), also Linux and Solaris in my daily life. You'll be taking an awful long time telling me that out of all of those that Windows is "what a computer is".

But in a side-by-side Mac OS X vs Windows comparison I still cannot find anything that cannot be done on the Mac. To claim that it is not a computer or a full blown computer OS would be a first class troll.

[Ben]

There is no doubting that S60 needs some major work to make it more user friendly, but I doubt Nokia will ever turn S60 into a carebear OS that stops you from performing even basic tasks. :)
Oh totally. They'll kill it completely :)

[The Mullet of G]

Ah, well, you see, I use all of Mac and Windows (XP and 7), also Linux and Solaris in my daily life. You'll be taking an awful long time telling me that out of all of those that Windows is "what a computer is".

But in a side-by-side Mac OS X vs Windows comparison I still cannot find anything that cannot be done on the Mac. To claim that it is not a computer or a full blown computer OS would be a first class troll.



Actually common sense should already tell you that Windows is what most people consider to be a computer, if your still not sure though try asking 96% of the worlds computer users what they think. Seriously how out of touch would you have to be to consider Linux or Solaris even relevant to the common man? [insert lol smiley]

Also you should probably read my post again, as your effectively trolling yourself here. I was talking about iPhone, in the context of my post thats blatantly obvious, of course you chose to take part of my post out of context, clever stuff...no really it is. :)

If your going to try and troll me then you really need to work much harder, I give this effort an F. :)

[Heidi]

*Slaps* G :p behave yourself

[miffed]

Originally Posted by The Mullet of G
I'm not sure if using Macs for too long has eroded your vision of what a computer is, but seriously thats about as far from my vision of a computer as you could possibly get.


I was talking about iPhone,

:rolleyes:

[The Mullet of G]

*Slaps* G :p behave yourself

Oooh er, I think I actually liked that. *hug* :D


:rolleyes:

You do realise that the bit you quoted was the end of a long paragraph talking about how I didn't consider iPhone to be a proper computer in my pocket? If I'd just spent a paragraph ranting about Macs then I could understand your mistake, but that isn't what happened. Rather than actually speak about any of the relevant points that I made, you instead picked at the fluff on the end of my post. :rolleyes: