[Ben]

http://www.trustedreviews.com/mobile-phones/news/2008/07/18/Nokia-Targets-Mainstream-With-Touchscreen/p1
Lol :p

Nokia has consistently shown in recent years that it doesn't have the best grasp of the high end, cutting edge handset market but that certainly isn't affecting its market success...

The latest example came during a Q2 Financial Results conference call by Kai Öistämö, Nokia's Head of Devices, where he revealed the company will first target the midrange with its impending touchscreen handsets, not the high-end where surely this tech should debut?

Naturally enough Nokia has immediately jumped on this stating it: "remains fully committed to bringing to market a complete portfolio of touch products - for the mass-market, the high-end, and even at the low-end." Still Kai was right since the quote continues: "We intend to play to Nokia's strength, appealing to the broadest possible market, and leverage our advantages in brand, scale, platforms, manufacturing and distribution."
So midrange then...

Of course its first touchscreen handset is going to be the much leaked and iPhone-influenced 5800 'Tube' which is already shaping up to be mildly disappointing specs-wise. Furthermore, with the N96 failing to impress it could be argued the company should be concentrating on a breakthrough model to kick the iPhone 3G into touch and bring back some of the glamour once associated with the Finnish brand.

On the other hand, none of this is particularly hurting results with Nokia reporting Q2 turnover to be a massive €13.15bn up four per cent on the year ago quarter. Against this however profit - while still a whopping €1.5bn - is down a whole 38 per cent but this reflects similar strains felt by rival manufacturers in recent months and a number of significant one-off restructuring and 'special items' costs.

Still, iPhone killer... please make it!
-1 for putting "iPhone killer" in the article :mad:
Nokia sure are taking their sweet time. Yes, the original iPhone wasn't exactly going to challenge their market dominance, but with the iPhone 3G launched across Europe (i.e. home ground) Nokia really should have a mid-range touch device out by now that offers similar iPhone simplicity. They've had over a year...

Still, look at 3G - Nokia were one of the last to the mainstream party, but with the 6680 they were easily the best. But Apple are no LG, NEC or Motorola. This time they're playing with fire!

[The Mullet of G]

The first paragraph of that article sets the tone basically, at what point during recent years did Nokia not absolutely dominate the high end cutting edge handset market?

I can't understand this constant belief that Nokia must have a touch screen handset, they are already dominating the market without one. Why should they rush to bring one out? If I'm already winning a race by a country mile, then I'm not gonna bother running any faster whats the point? :)

[Hands0n]

The same could be said for 3G. Really no need for making 3G handsets even now, five years since the first commercial 3G network went live. But there they are, Nokia churning out 3G handsets like their lives depended upon it!

Nokia will make a touchscreen handset simply because the market expects it to. Nokia will not accept a corporate loss of face to not only Apple but it's long term rivals in the business.

[The Mullet of G]

The same could be said for 3G. Really no need for making 3G handsets even now, five years since the first commercial 3G network went live. But there they are, Nokia churning out 3G handsets like their lives depended upon it!

Nokia will make a touchscreen handset simply because the market expects it to. Nokia will not accept a corporate loss of face to not only Apple but it's long term rivals in the business.

Eh? Could you possibly have found a less relevant example? Could you explain the logic you used to compare 3G with touch screens? As it seems like a bit of a random statement.

Also can you explain how a company loses face when its market share almost equals the rest of the competition combined?

Maybe if you had talked about carpet fluff or saw dust your post may have been more relevant, but its hard to say really. :)

[miffed]

I do see your point Mullet , Nokia have managed to maintain their position in the market despite turning out the same unimaginative dross for what seems like decades , so I can see why perhaps they would feel the need to be swayed by innovation.
Although TBH I would have thought that , as manufacturers , they would jump at the chance to reduce moving parts. Their lack of enthusiasm on this front suggests that they are finding it a little difficult , they obviously aren't adverse to the idea , hence the conception of the 5800.

[The Mullet of G]

I do see your point Mullet , Nokia have managed to maintain their position in the market despite turning out the same unimaginative dross for what seems like decades , so I can see why perhaps they would feel the need to be swayed by innovation.
Although TBH I would have thought that , as manufacturers , they would jump at the chance to reduce moving parts. Their lack of enthusiasm on this front suggests that they are finding it a little difficult , they obviously aren't adverse to the idea , hence the conception of the 5800.


Nokia have maintained that market position because they have consistently produced phones that people want to buy. Innovation is great, but the market data suggests that people tend to value familiarity above innovation. People talk about the iPhone UI and sure its nice and shiny, but in the mobile phone world Nokia's UI is like Windows, everyone has seen it and they know how to use it. So while you may find it unimaginative, its the very reason Nokia sell so many handsets, and it would be a bit silly to risk alienating your customers by radically changing the UI they know and love?

Sure Nokia will dabble in touch screen devices, but they are unlikely to jump in with both feet as they already have the winning formula that everyone else wishes they had. :)

[Hands0n]

Eh? Could you possibly have found a less relevant example? Could you explain the logic you used to compare 3G with touch screens? As it seems like a bit of a random statement.

Also can you explain how a company loses face when its market share almost equals the rest of the competition combined?

Maybe if you had talked about carpet fluff or saw dust your post may have been more relevant, but its hard to say really. :)

Touchscreen and 3G technology are both moot in the current day and age. Neither is required to the success of what is essentially a mobile telephone, as opposed to a Smartphone. You keep on banging on about how many handsets Nokia sell, take a look for yourself what the segment of 3G vs 2G handsets are and you'll see that GSM handsets account for very much more than 3G. However, I'll say it yet again, Nokia choose to be in those markets through consumer and market demand (all successful businesses cater to such demands ...).

You constantly miss the simple point about how a company, even one as large as Nokia, has to maintain its image, its face. They will consider it a loss of face if they cannot compete at all levels - they cannot have the market for touchscreen taken away from them. Their own consumer and market base will expect Nokia to build product and, sure enough, Nokia will do just that. Brand reputation is everything, it is jealously guarded by the successful, they will do nothing to risk it, not even ignore the touchscreen even if it only represents 0.001% of their business.

I know you choose to cite Nokia's marketshare as a whole compared to minority companies and claim that as their success, that is not an eggs for eggs comparison and is thus meaningless. No market statistician would deliver such a comparison. But it is clear that the likes of Apple and HTC with the G1 have been very successful first time entrants to the touchscreen market. That their handsets sell is inescapable. That Nokia intends to and will compete in that footprint is also abundantly clear.

The comments have nothing to do with Nokia's overall supermacy of volume sales over the entire mobile handset spectrum.

[The Mullet of G]

Touchscreen and 3G technology are both moot in the current day and age. Neither is required to the success of what is essentially a mobile telephone, as opposed to a Smartphone. You keep on banging on about how many handsets Nokia sell, take a look for yourself what the segment of 3G vs 2G handsets are and you'll see that GSM handsets account for very much more than 3G. However, I'll say it yet again, Nokia choose to be in those markets through consumer and market demand (all successful businesses cater to such demands ...).

You constantly miss the simple point about how a company, even one as large as Nokia, has to maintain its image, its face. They will consider it a loss of face if they cannot compete at all levels - they cannot have the market for touchscreen taken away from them. Their own consumer and market base will expect Nokia to build product and, sure enough, Nokia will do just that. Brand reputation is everything, it is jealously guarded by the successful, they will do nothing to risk it, not even ignore the touchscreen even if it only represents 0.001% of their business.

I know you choose to cite Nokia's marketshare as a whole compared to minority companies and claim that as their success, that is not an eggs for eggs comparison and is thus meaningless. No market statistician would deliver such a comparison. But it is clear that the likes of Apple and HTC with the G1 have been very successful first time entrants to the touchscreen market. That their handsets sell is inescapable. That Nokia intends to and will compete in that footprint is also abundantly clear.

The comments have nothing to do with Nokia's overall supermacy of volume sales over the entire mobile handset spectrum.

Well against all odds you did manage to post something less relevant than carpet fluff and sawdust. At times I can't tell if your disputing my points or just randomly waffling.

Your whole first paragraph is moot, you keep talking about comparing like for like, yet your trying to compare touchscreen with 3G. The result is a paragraph worth of waffle about nothing. :rolleyes:

Market data and Nokia's own actions would suggest that its yourself who fails to grasp the simple points. If Nokia felt so compelled to save face and compete, then why didn't they churn out a touchscreen handset months ago when everyone else did? If they were that bothered about the touchscreen market being taken away from them, would they have waited till now to release what is a mid range device? And has their brand reputation been damaged by not having one till now? Absolutely not, just look once more at the sales data for conformation here.

Having tried to compare 3G and touchscreens your hardly in any position to call anyones comparisons meaningless. And you still didn't explain how a company whose market share almost equals all of its rivals combined loses face, you went off on some boring rant instead. :)

[Hands0n]

Well, I've said my piece, lets leave it for others to decide. We're clearly not going to concur, not that we especially need to. The balance has been made, readers can work it out for themselves :)

As to brand protection, I speak from direct experience. I work for a large organisation that has a reputation for fierce brand protection. To sit in on discussions about it is revealing. Brand reputation is king. The concept of a corporate loss of face is very real, as I have witnessed in previous roles, even seemingly childishly so but nonetheless very real and apparent.

To suggest, then, that Nokia will not be similarly influenced to bring out a touchscreen by brand protection makes not sense.

The reasons as to why Nokia are taking so long could very well be embedded in the difficulty Nokia face of making a legacy OS like Symbian as functionally equivalent a touchscreen as the iPhone and G1, to name but two. We know that early attempts at doing so (UIQ) were not an outstanding success. The Nokia 6708 issued in 2008 was based on the BenQ P31 :eek:, not even Nokia's own.

A brief history of Nokia's foray into touchscreen is here http://www.mobilegazette.com/nokia-first-touchscreen-08x09x29.htm and goes some way to offer an insight as to why Nokia are still not in the touchscreen market that they have clearly wanted to be for some considerable time.

Damn those upstarts Apple and HTC/Google. How dare they steal the crown? :rolleyes:

[The Mullet of G]

Well, I've said my piece, lets leave it for others to decide. We're clearly not going to concur, not that we especially need to. The balance has been made, readers can work it out for themselves :)

As to brand protection, I speak from direct experience. I work for a large organisation that has a reputation for fierce brand protection. To sit in on discussions about it is revealing. Brand reputation is king. The concept of a corporate loss of face is very real, as I have witnessed in previous roles, even seemingly childishly so but nonetheless very real and apparent.

To suggest, then, that Nokia will not be similarly influenced to bring out a touchscreen by brand protection makes not sense.

The reasons as to why Nokia are taking so long could very well be embedded in the difficulty Nokia face of making a legacy OS like Symbian as functionally equivalent a touchscreen as the iPhone and G1, to name but two. We know that early attempts at doing so (UIQ) were not an outstanding success. The Nokia 6708 issued in 2008 was based on the BenQ P31 :eek:, not even Nokia's own.

A brief history of Nokia's foray into touchscreen is here http://www.mobilegazette.com/nokia-first-touchscreen-08x09x29.htm and goes some way to offer an insight as to why Nokia are still not in the touchscreen market that they have clearly wanted to be for some considerable time.

Damn those upstarts Apple and HTC/Google. How dare they steal the crown? :rolleyes:

While I respect that you have an insight into working for a large organisation, I also have similar experiences of large organisations, but neither of us work for Nokia. So we can only speculate on the evidence we have, and Nokia are an extremely arrogant company, their market position has meant they have largely dismissed the competition. This is reflected in the speed at which Nokia evolves its handsets. I will be the first to admit this is probably a bad thing, but you can't exactly blame them considering how well they are doing.

Nokia have been dabbling with touchscreens for years, this much is common knowledge, who could forget the 7700? This doesn't mean its a market they felt they desperately had to conquer, when you release as many handsets a year as Nokia do, you have to occasionally throw something different out. But they were still smart enough to realise that their bread and butter was in traditional non touch screen phones, and it still is. :)

[Ben]

The first paragraph of that article sets the tone basically, at what point during recent years did Nokia not absolutely dominate the high end cutting edge handset market?

I can't understand this constant belief that Nokia must have a touch screen handset, they are already dominating the market without one. Why should they rush to bring one out? If I'm already winning a race by a country mile, then I'm not gonna bother running any faster whats the point? :)
It's all about the future and what's next. When Moto were dominating the mid-range with the RaZR they seemed to care very little about the future, and their inability to compete with the next generation products of their rivals left the company in all but ruin.

Nokia aren't stupid, I'm sure they've got incredible R&D going on. They've dominated pretty much everything with near 40% market share for as long as anybody can remember. But since mobile phones became mobile computers there has been a lot more at stake. I think even Nokia realise that with such a large screen required for full-on mobile computing an element of touch-screen capability is going to be essential one day.

I, personally, thought that Nokia would have made a bigger move on touch-screen devices by now. However, as is often the case with Nokia, I suspect that they're waiting for the right time. Indeed, only time will tell how successful their current strategy will be - Android and OS X are brand new competitors, it could be a decade before we see the full implications of their introduction.

Lets keep this about the fundamentals, please - criticising the writing style of others is not an option here. We're all old and wise enough to form an argument without resorting to personal criticism.

[Hands0n]

Ah, but thats it see? I don't blame Nokia, I don't blame anyone. It all is what it is ...

I shouldn't imagine one boardroom is very different from another, and have seen corporate arrogance at the sharp end also. It is amusing to see, I digress.

Whether Nokia felt desperate to enter or not is moot, that they tried to is clear. Had they succeeded they would probably have set the pattern up until the iPhone's own paradigm. Until then the touchscreen was all very predicatable, a virtualisation of the WIMP environment of the desktop.

What Apple have done is to take the UI and make it much more intuitive to use, that the man in the street can grasp. They did this with the iPod also and the effect was profound - with others trying to emulate the method with mixed success.

History will record the iPhone's UI for the groundbreaker that it was. Others, like Nokia, will bring their own product to market. I believe that Nokia has to, if for no other reason to finally succeed in its attempts to bring a successful touchscreen to market, even if it is eleven years in the making.

Nokia's own corporate arrogance will demand that history does not record it as trying and failing, even as the likes of HTC are overlaying Windows Mobile with their own UI that more closely resembles the iPhone's in appearance if not in function - the "gestures" etc. of which are protected under Apple patents.

If there ever was a "market to conquer" Nokia have it now, they are no longer on the greenfield site they were eleven years back.

[The Mullet of G]

It's all about the future and what's next. When Moto were dominating the mid-range with the RaZR they seemed to care very little about the future, and their inability to compete with the next generation products of their rivals left the company in all but ruin.

Nokia aren't stupid, I'm sure they've got incredible R&D going on. They've dominated pretty much everything with near 40% market share for as long as anybody can remember. But since mobile phones became mobile computers there has been a lot more at stake. I think even Nokia realise that with such a large screen required for full-on mobile computing an element of touch-screen capability is going to be essential one day.

I, personally, thought that Nokia would have made a bigger move on touch-screen devices by now. However, as is often the case with Nokia, I suspect that they're waiting for the right time. Indeed, only time will tell how successful their current strategy will be - Android and OS X are brand new competitors, it could be a decade before we see the full implications of their introduction.

Lets keep this about the fundamentals, please - criticising the writing style of others is not an option here. We're all old and wise enough to form an argument without resorting to personal criticism.

RAZR was always just a passing fad though, it was an absolutely terrible phone in every way possible, but people seemed to like the form factor and made major sacrifices to have it. Moto's inability to compete even before RAZR is what left them in ruins, RAZR was just a lucky break for them that prolonged the inevitable.

My point is even if Nokia never released a touch screen phone ever, chances are its not going to send them to the wall. With that in mind they are able to pick and choose what they release, and typically everyone else just has to follow in their wake. They currently sell around 122 million handsets per quarter, most of them are mid to low end devices, for Nokia the Smartphone market is probably a lot like Ford releasing the GT40, even if it completely bombs its such a small part of their overall business. Sure Nokia want to flash high end devices around as it looks good, but the current range they have is already maintaining their healthy market share, why rush to jump on the latest fad if your already leading the pack in terms of sales?

[Hands0n]

I don't normally but this warrants picking apart and examining in more detail...


My point is even if Nokia never released a touch screen phone ever, chances are its not going to send them to the wall.

I do not for one moment believe that anyone is suggesting that at all.



With that in mind they are able to pick and choose what they release, and typically everyone else just has to follow in their wake.

Sony Ericsson will have set the standard for Musicphones (i.e. the Walkman series) that only recently are Nokia addressing with any degree of seriousness.



They currently sell around 122 million handsets per quarter, most of them are mid to low end devices,

Yes, that is Nokia's core business, the mass or commodity market which by definition will be so-called mid and low-end devices. We, in the UK, are unbelievably spoiled for choice, even by Western civilisation standards! Even the Americans don't come close to the sheer breadth and standard of our enriched market. In that respect there is an accelerating turn away from mid/low-end to more high-end devices, particularly those that can handle data on the move.


for Nokia the Smartphone market is probably a lot like Ford releasing the GT40, even if it completely bombs its such a small part of their overall business.

Absolutely, and just as Ford did Nokia have felt some compulsion to be in that market. It would not have been a light and trivial decision to make.


Sure Nokia want to flash high end devices around as it looks good,
They have to be there, even if it is to only appeal to the high-end executive market. These same executives will be making the decision on which manufacturer's product to deploy across their corporations. These decisions are often based upon subjective opinion rather than any good practical and technological reasoning. I can cite one very famous high street bank that went to IBM's OS/2 in the face of Windows because the executive decision-maker had a dislike of Bill Gates! That decision embedded the technology into the corporation for more than ten years after OS/2 ceased to be!

Equally, Apple-hating execs will block the iPhone from any corporate deployment, even if that is a better business proposition than RIM or Windows Mobile.

Nokia will want to have a tasty trinket to dangle in front of these personalities.


but the current range they have is already maintaining their healthy market share, why rush to jump on the latest fad if your already leading the pack in terms of sales?

Again, market share as expressed as a global value is one thing. But Nokia's market share of the place held by the likes of RIM and Windows Mobile is minimal. That same place, albeit a small part of the global market, is being invaded by the likes of the Android-based G1. And it is the latter that is the biggest threat. Unshackled from licensing restrictions from the likes of Microsoft and Apple we should expect and anticipate the Android OS to be a major boost for the emerging manufacturers from the Far East.

Nokia has no time at all to rest on its laurels. Even the largest can fall. The Champ to Chump cycle is prevalent. Nokia has a fight on its hands, the iPhone and its like are going to be major disruptors to the incumbents like Nokia. History is littered with examples ...

[The Mullet of G]

I don't normally but this warrants picking apart and examining in more detail...


I do not for one moment believe that anyone is suggesting that at all.


Sony Ericsson will have set the standard for Musicphones (i.e. the Walkman series) that only recently are Nokia addressing with any degree of seriousness.


Yes, that is Nokia's core business, the mass or commodity market which by definition will be so-called mid and low-end devices. We, in the UK, are unbelievably spoiled for choice, even by Western civilisation standards! Even the Americans don't come close to the sheer breadth and standard of our enriched market. In that respect there is an accelerating turn away from mid/low-end to more high-end devices, particularly those that can handle data on the move.


Absolutely, and just as Ford did Nokia have felt some compulsion to be in that market. It would not have been a light and trivial decision to make.


They have to be there, even if it is to only appeal to the high-end executive market. These same executives will be making the decision on which manufacturer's product to deploy across their corporations. These decisions are often based upon subjective opinion rather than any good practical and technological reasoning. I can cite one very famous high street bank that went to IBM's OS/2 in the face of Windows because the executive decision-maker had a dislike of Bill Gates! That decision embedded the technology into the corporation for more than ten years after OS/2 ceased to be!

Equally, Apple-hating execs will block the iPhone from any corporate deployment, even if that is a better business proposition than RIM or Windows Mobile.

Nokia will want to have a tasty trinket to dangle in front of these personalities.



Again, market share as expressed as a global value is one thing. But Nokia's market share of the place held by the likes of RIM and Windows Mobile is minimal. That same place, albeit a small part of the global market, is being invaded by the likes of the Android-based G1. And it is the latter that is the biggest threat. Unshackled from licensing restrictions from the likes of Microsoft and Apple we should expect and anticipate the Android OS to be a major boost for the emerging manufacturers from the Far East.

Nokia has no time at all to rest on its laurels. Even the largest can fall. The Champ to Chump cycle is prevalent. Nokia has a fight on its hands, the iPhone and its like are going to be major disruptors to the incumbents like Nokia. History is littered with examples ...

The thing is SE only ship about 22 million handsets per quarter, so effectively Nokia is still the biggest player the mp3 playing phone market, better still Nokia are probably the worlds largest supplier of mp3 players. Add to that they have had a fair few music phones out over the years. Walkman as a brand died well over a decade ago, any credibility it had died long before that under the burden of crap gear bearing its logo.

We are indeed lucky here in the UK as I keep trying to tell my American friends, they wont have any of it though. The Mid to low end market will always be the biggest, its much the same in any market place. Its worth noting that the technology in mid to low end devices will also advance, they wont just stay still.

Ford didn't make the GT40 because it was a market the felt they had to be in, they built it cause Ferrari pissed them off. :D

Nokia already caters to the business class with the E Series, I expect any corporation would look at those before worrying about a touch screen device aimed at the consumer market. Nokia has a handset to cover pretty much every base. I think the bank example you used is quite relevant here, much like that one bank not using its product didn't hurt Microsoft, the same is true for Nokia.

Nokia's smartphone market share in the US has long been pretty poor, this isn't anything new. It also isn't exactly hurting them globally, pretty much every manufacturer has a weak market, I'm sure they'd like to be strong in every market but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Also Linux is free from all of those things and its frankly cack and hardly anyone uses it. :)

On the contrary Nokia has spent years resting on its laurels, and it hasn't exactly hurt them financially, its hard to see that changing anytime soon. :)

[Hands0n]

Yea, but you see, it is that very attitude "Linux is cack" and "rest on laurels" that can and does cost even the greatest corporations their market place. Even a company as all pervasive as Nokia can fall, it is not a question of might.

Linux on the mobile handset under Android is anything but "cack" - unless there are citations as to where it is so "cack" to support the assertion. Even so, what I have seen of Android in its G1 incarnation outstrips anything that I have seen on S60 to date, and how long has Nokia had to get S60 right?

Perhaps we sould return in 12 months time to review S60 Vx vs Android Vx and OS X Vx alongside each other. Oh what the hell, I'm feeling generous tonight, we'll invite that other newcomer (!!) Windows Mobile to the party also ...

It is easy to comment about the [mature] E series in relation to touchscreen devices but it would be a mistake to misplace the iPhone as a consumer item. It has all the makings of a very powerful business device - the key is going to be in how Apple allow it to be developed and marketed. They could, admittedly, get it entirely wrong and doom it to consumer hell. But they did not build in Cisco VPN and Exchange support if they did not have design intentions on the business market. It would be folly to get Apple's intentions wrong, they clearly want to widen into the business and government markets.

Just consider the two features I've mentioned already, built-in VPN and Exchange support - coupled with Remote Wipe and you have what is essentially a very secure business/government device. Add to it the development capabilities and there are opportunities for businesses and government to develop bespoke tools for a platform that they can secure at will should it be lost or stolen. These are tantalising to corporate IT, and not realisable easily on any other device, particularly mobile.

No, Apple very definitely want business and government business, and they will actively seek to get it. The platform itself, OS X in the iPhone is ready in very many respects.

It may be that RIM and Android will not compete in the same space, and that would be okay too because the consumer space wants these devices. That much is evident from the sales of such.

One small point of order - "[I]Nokia are probably the worlds largest supplier of mp3 players ..." - no, that would be Apple with their iPod, I already researched and cited this with links here (https://talk3g.co.uk/showpost.php?p=30768&postcount=6). Nokia may well be the largest supplier of MP3 compatible mobile phone handsets, but that is another statement altogether.

Will any of this tilt against Nokia? No, not unless Nokia get it wrong and choose to ignore the space. Outside of our enriched circumstances there is an entire Third World that will "make do" for now with low-end mobile handsets in lieu of nothing else. But as we have already seen, it is these very countries that are driving entirely new business lines. Given their lack of inherent in-the-ground infrastructure their future is entirely wireless. And which ever mobile manufacturer addresses that need will be the dominant player in ten years time!

Laurels in the face of such new business opportunity? Great folly indeed!

[The Mullet of G]

Yea, but you see, it is that very attitude "Linux is cack" and "rest on laurels" that can and does cost even the greatest corporations their market place. Even a company as all pervasive as Nokia can fall, it is not a question of might.

Linux on the mobile handset under Android is anything but "cack" - unless there are citations as to where it is so "cack" to support the assertion. Even so, what I have seen of Android in its G1 incarnation outstrips anything that I have seen on S60 to date, and how long has Nokia had to get S60 right?

Perhaps we sould return in 12 months time to review S60 Vx vs Android Vx and OS X Vx alongside each other. Oh what the hell, I'm feeling generous tonight, we'll invite that other newcomer (!!) Windows Mobile to the party also ...

It is easy to comment about the [mature] E series in relation to touchscreen devices but it would be a mistake to misplace the iPhone as a consumer item. It has all the makings of a very powerful business device - the key is going to be in how Apple allow it to be developed and marketed. They could, admittedly, get it entirely wrong and doom it to consumer hell. But they did not build in Cisco VPN and Exchange support if they did not have design intentions on the business market. It would be folly to get Apple's intentions wrong, they clearly want to widen into the business and government markets.

Just consider the two features I've mentioned already, built-in VPN and Exchange support - coupled with Remote Wipe and you have what is essentially a very secure business/government device. Add to it the development capabilities and there are opportunities for businesses and government to develop bespoke tools for a platform that they can secure at will should it be lost or stolen. These are tantalising to corporate IT, and not realisable easily on any other device, particularly mobile.

No, Apple very definitely want business and government business, and they will actively seek to get it. The platform itself, OS X in the iPhone is ready in very many respects.

It may be that RIM and Android will not compete in the same space, and that would be okay too because the consumer space wants these devices. That much is evident from the sales of such.

One small point of order - "[I]Nokia are probably the worlds largest supplier of mp3 players ..." - no, that would be Apple with their iPod, I already researched and cited this with links here (https://talk3g.co.uk/showpost.php?p=30768&postcount=6). Nokia may well be the largest supplier of MP3 compatible mobile phone handsets, but that is another statement altogether.

Will any of this tilt against Nokia? No, not unless Nokia get it wrong and choose to ignore the space. Outside of our enriched circumstances there is an entire Third World that will "make do" for now with low-end mobile handsets in lieu of nothing else. But as we have already seen, it is these very countries that are driving entirely new business lines. Given their lack of inherent in-the-ground infrastructure their future is entirely wireless. And which ever mobile manufacturer addresses that need will be the dominant player in ten years time!

Laurels in the face of such new business opportunity? Great folly indeed!

Are you denying the fact that Linux is cack? And can you see it toppling Microsoft anytime soon? Likewise I can't see Nokia falling over anytime soon.

My mention of Linux was in regards to the desktop version, I don't recall mentioning Android, so that paragraph is pretty moot.

You can invite anyone you like to the party, even better I'll give you 24 months.

How long has the iPhone been out, and how much of an impact has it made on the business market? From what I've seen its a fairly untrusted platform in the enterprise sector, feel free to correct me here though. And doesn't it have some short commings when it comes to editing or creating content? Again correct me if I'm wrong.

OS X may well be ready but its hardly setting the enterprise world alight.

Ok if you want to split hairs then Nokia are probably the worlds largest supplier of mp3 playing devices, being as Apple has only sold about 150 million iPods since launch Nokia probably have a massive margin here.

For Nokia to have any real issues it would have to do extremely badly over a fairly long period of time, and I just don't see that happening. :)

[Hands0n]

Are you denying the fact that Linux is cack? And can you see it toppling Microsoft anytime soon? Likewise I can't see Nokia falling over anytime soon.

Define cack. Which distribution of Linux - they vary widely. Microsoft's errors in Vista have cost it dearly so far, XP remains dominant in the face of that, the PR machine is in overdrive so as not to allow Windows 7 to overshadow or rather highlight Vista's practical and commercial failings. The spin machine has been in overdrive. But what has any of this to do with Nokia and mobile handsets?



My mention of Linux was in regards to the desktop version, I don't recall mentioning Android, so that paragraph is pretty moot.

Except that in mentioning Linux brings Android to the table as it is based on a Linux kernel.



How long has the iPhone been out, and how much of an impact has it made on the business market? From what I've seen its a fairly untrusted platform in the enterprise sector, feel free to correct me here though. And doesn't it have some short commings when it comes to editing or creating content? Again correct me if I'm wrong.

OS X may well be ready but its hardly setting the enterprise world alight.

If you know anything at all about the enterprise market you will also know that it moves much slower than the consumer market. Look how many years it took enterprise to move Windows XP from Windows 2000 and earlier OS versions. We can expect the enterprise lag to be around 3 years, during which there will be limited but definite uptake of the Smartphone devices.

Do not forget, also, that the whole notion of pocketable mobile devices in the enterprise is still relatively new. It started with PDAs, mistakes were made, lessons learned, but solutions far and few between. Security in this day and age are paramount. I contend that the iPhone is one of the few devices that, out of the box, are able to deliver some of what enterprise will need in these respects.

In relation to editing or creating content you would be wholly incorrect. Seeing as you are someone who promotes add-on packages to solve gaps in the base package then you will fully appreciate that iPhone Apps are where the solution currently lies. These can either be bought off the shelf from Apps Store or can be developed in-house. There is no reason at all that any reasonably competent dev team cannot develop a suitable in-house application using the iPhone SDK.

In terms of the global market - simple research and using Gartner, for example, produces some of the following:-

Highlights from the first quarter of 2008 include:

Smartphone sales in Europe, Middle East, and Africa (EMEA) totaled 11.7 million units in the first quarter of 2008, a 38.7 percent increase from the first quarter of 2008
In North America, smartphone sales totaled 7.3 million units in the first quarter of 2008, a 106.2 percent increase from the same period last year.
Vendor Highlights

Nokia: during the quarter, Nokia commanded over 45 percent of the global smartphone market, with sales up 25 percent year over year. Nokia continued to maintain its leadership in EMEA, Asia/Pacific and Latin America due to the variety of its smartphone portfolio, which includes a number of both high-end and mid-tier models available at different price points.
Research in Motion: in 1Q08, RIM held onto second place in the global vendor rankings and improved its share to 13.4 percent. RIM's sales volume has been driven by sales of its prosumer/consumer-focused devices, the BlackBerry Curve and Pearl. In the U.S. market, RIM maintained its No. 1 ranking with its share totaling 42 percent.
Apple moved into the third spot in the global smartphone market with 5.3 percent share. It sold 1.72 million units in the quarter. In the U.S., Apple became the No. 2 vendor in smartphone sales with its market share reaching with 20 percent.

Source: http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=688116

Look, I'll accept any reasonable argument but the facts are that here we have a first go at Smartphone capturing 5.3% of the global Smartphone market, and considering that they are not in all the worlds economies, yet. Furthermore this happens within the first 18 months of trading their device and less than 8 months of their latest 3G device! If you cannot offer credit for that then the discussion is hopelessly lost!



Ok if you want to split hairs then Nokia are probably the worlds largest supplier of mp3 playing devices, being as Apple has only sold about 150 million iPods since launch Nokia probably have a massive margin here.

How about some citation or other evidence of that - you were quick enough to slate me off, and I have been providing citation throughout these entire convesations, its entirely one-sided. Play fair.

I am not inclined to accept your assertion though given articles like this http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/17/bloomberg/sxsamsung.php where Samsung are looking to "...unseat Apple Computer, maker of the iPod, as the world's top manufacturer of the gadgets by 2007."




For Nokia to have any real issues it would have to do extremely badly over a fairly long period of time, and I just don't see that happening. :)
Really? How long is long? Can Nokia ignore the Smartphone market really? Especially with a forecast growth to 65% of market in 2012 - only 3 years away (see http://www.itfacts.biz/smartphone-market-to-grow-52-in-2008/11308)

Of course, these predictions can be rubbished, they were made pre-recession. But thats the thing with all of this, no one knows for sure, but companies like Nokia with their 3 and 5-year plans have to take account for crystal-balling predictions like these. To get it wrong will mean they miss a significant part of the business.

I don't think that playing Canute in these difficult financial times would be wise of Nokia. To see the giants of finance and industry collapse and disappear is shocking. Nokia are not immune.

[The Mullet of G]

Define cack. Which distribution of Linux - they vary widely. Microsoft's errors in Vista have cost it dearly so far, XP remains dominant in the face of that, the PR machine is in overdrive so as not to allow Windows 7 to overshadow or rather highlight Vista's practical and commercial failings. The spin machine has been in overdrive. But what has any of this to do with Nokia and mobile handsets?


Except that in mentioning Linux brings Android to the table as it is based on a Linux kernel.


If you know anything at all about the enterprise market you will also know that it moves much slower than the consumer market. Look how many years it took enterprise to move Windows XP from Windows 2000 and earlier OS versions. We can expect the enterprise lag to be around 3 years, during which there will be limited but definite uptake of the Smartphone devices.

Do not forget, also, that the whole notion of pocketable mobile devices in the enterprise is still relatively new. It started with PDAs, mistakes were made, lessons learned, but solutions far and few between. Security in this day and age are paramount. I contend that the iPhone is one of the few devices that, out of the box, are able to deliver some of what enterprise will need in these respects.

In relation to editing or creating content you would be wholly incorrect. Seeing as you are someone who promotes add-on packages to solve gaps in the base package then you will fully appreciate that iPhone Apps are where the solution currently lies. These can either be bought off the shelf from Apps Store or can be developed in-house. There is no reason at all that any reasonably competent dev team cannot develop a suitable in-house application using the iPhone SDK.

In terms of the global market - simple research and using Gartner, for example, produces some of the following:-


Look, I'll accept any reasonable argument but the facts are that here we have a first go at Smartphone capturing 5.3% of the global Smartphone market, and considering that they are not in all the worlds economies, yet. Furthermore this happens within the first 18 months of trading their device and less than 8 months of their latest 3G device! If you cannot offer credit for that then the discussion is hopelessly lost!


How about some citation or other evidence of that - you were quick enough to slate me off, and I have been providing citation throughout these entire convesations, its entirely one-sided. Play fair.

I am not inclined to accept your assertion though given articles like this http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/17/bloomberg/sxsamsung.php where Samsung are looking to "...unseat Apple Computer, maker of the iPod, as the world's top manufacturer of the gadgets by 2007."



Really? How long is long? Can Nokia ignore the Smartphone market really? Especially with a forecast growth to 65% of market in 2012 - only 3 years away (see http://www.itfacts.biz/smartphone-market-to-grow-52-in-2008/11308)

Of course, these predictions can be rubbished, they were made pre-recession. But thats the thing with all of this, no one knows for sure, but companies like Nokia with their 3 and 5-year plans have to take account for crystal-balling predictions like these. To get it wrong will mean they miss a significant part of the business.

I don't think that playing Canute in these difficult financial times would be wise of Nokia. To see the giants of finance and industry collapse and disappear is shocking. Nokia are not immune.

All of the ones I've tried - Ubuntu, Redhat, Gentoo, the only one that was actually any worth was Linux Mint which is basically just another version of Ubuntu, but tweaked for a more Windows like experience. Linux just isn't ready for the mainstream, even the install process is a joke. As a robust OS its great, but as an OS you'd actually want to use on a daily basis no thanks.

I still didn't mention Android so bringing it to the table is pretty pointless.

If you know anything about Apple you'll know they have existed for more than 3 years, and yet they still haven't made any real impact on the enterprise sector. So enterprise lag or not no one cares about OS X, much like in the consumer market.

Oh you mean it doesn't have the ability to edit and create straight out of the box? Taking the same stance you did in another thread, that must mean its broken and not fit for use, maybe trading standards should take a look at that.

Ok here we go again Nokia sell around 122 million handsets per quarter, out of that 122 million how many do you suspect can play mp3? Yes its quite a lot isn't it. You might want to look back at my previous post where I said and I quote "mp3 playing devices" Your argument is based on mp3 players and theres a big difference. Also the link you provide is talking solely about mp3 players so is irrelevant.

All predictions can be rubbished recession or not, I read droves of predictions every day and most of them end up being miles off.

Also the financial institutes are irrelevant to Nokia's situation, they didn't collapse because they sat on their hands, they did so because they made stupid investments and decisions over long periods. Most of the collapses in the industry sector were companies who were already in trouble before the recession. :)

[Ben]

If you know anything about Apple you'll know they have existed for more than 3 years, and yet they still haven't made any real impact on the enterprise sector. So enterprise lag or not no one cares about OS X, much like in the consumer market.
Apple have only existed in their current state for about 3 years, since Tiger and the Intel switch.

Apple are currently gaining computer market share faster than any other computer manufacturer.

Just a lil point of order :P

[Hands0n]

All of the ones I've tried - Ubuntu, Redhat, Gentoo, the only one that was actually any worth was Linux Mint which is basically just another version of Ubuntu, but tweaked for a more Windows like experience. Linux just isn't ready for the mainstream, even the install process is a joke. As a robust OS its great, but as an OS you'd actually want to use on a daily basis no thanks.

I still didn't mention Android so bringing it to the table is pretty pointless.

Given that we are talking about Mobile Phone operating systems I wonder how you make that leap! The mention of Linux I took to mean in the mobile phone environment. I don't think that I even want to discuss PC operating systems within this topic.

Clearly there is a vibrant and growing life outside of Microsoft - better you get used to it.



If you know anything about Apple you'll know they have existed for more than 3 years, and yet they still haven't made any real impact on the enterprise sector. So enterprise lag or not no one cares about OS X, much like in the consumer market.

What an astonishing assertion to make in the face of figures showing OS X actually making inroads to the enterprise and consumer markets. I'll not quote them here, I've spent the last two days citing in the face of bluster and hot air so go google the detail for yourself.



Oh you mean it doesn't have the ability to edit and create straight out of the box? Taking the same stance you did in another thread, that must mean its broken and not fit for use, maybe trading standards should take a look at that.

Will you next be claiming that Symbian S60 does create and edit MS Office documents out of the box? Like for like, each OS requires an add-on program to do that kind of stuff. You may want to cite what S60 does that OS X in the iPhone or the G1s OS doesn't do in these terms - out of the box.



Ok here we go again Nokia sell around 122 million handsets per quarter, out of that 122 million how many do you suspect can play mp3? Yes its quite a lot isn't it. You might want to look back at my previous post where I said and I quote "mp3 playing devices" Your argument is based on mp3 players and theres a big difference. Also the link you provide is talking solely about mp3 players so is irrelevant.

If that is what you said, and I really cannot be bothered going back on the four miles of comment, I'll concede that point gladly.



All predictions can be rubbished recession or not, I read droves of predictions every day and most of them end up being miles off.

Also the financial institutes are irrelevant to Nokia's situation, they didn't collapse because they sat on their hands, they did so because they made stupid investments and decisions over long periods. Most of the collapses in the industry sector were companies who were already in trouble before the recession. :)
I had to read that last bit several times! How unbelievable! To suggest that Nokia are not tied in with the financial markets is to be in a state of total denial. Nokia is a listed company, a great portion of their value is in the markets share value. Their only residual strength against the global recession will be in how cash rich they are. In Nokia's case they are fortunatly strong in that respect, but the share value has been on a decline for the past 12 months from a high in Nov 2007 $40 down to around $15 today. If there develops a shareholder apathy to tech companies then Nokia could be hurt.

The markets can, and do, ruin companies and Nokia is not immune.

[3GScottishUser]

Its long overdue.

I have had an LG Viewty for a year and its not not ideal but its intuitive to touch the screen to make things happen now for me.

I had a play with my nephew's stuff this year and despite being more powerful the PSP seemed to lack the control appeal of the vastly inferior Ninteno DS, because the latter has an easier interface.

I tried both and was convinced that touch-screen made a huge diffence.

[Ben]

I agree, I love my touch screen, it's so much more intuitive than a numeric pad - on a phone, go figure! A sign of the times I guess, I don't really use my phone as a phone that much.

[Hands0n]

The Pew Internet and American Life Project has said that the mobile phone will become the primary means of internet access across the globe by 2020. The growth will largely be driven in emerging economies like India, China and Brazil.

URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7797959.stm

If true, and if borne out in reality, we can anticipate the market demand for larger-screen devices to increase, bringing the likes of the latter day touchscreen handsets into the mainstream. Perhaps the very term Smartphone will be demoted to mean nothing more than simply a modern day handset.

[The Mullet of G]

Given that we are talking about Mobile Phone operating systems I wonder how you make that leap! The mention of Linux I took to mean in the mobile phone environment. I don't think that I even want to discuss PC operating systems within this topic.

Clearly there is a vibrant and growing life outside of Microsoft - better you get used to it.


What an astonishing assertion to make in the face of figures showing OS X actually making inroads to the enterprise and consumer markets. I'll not quote them here, I've spent the last two days citing in the face of bluster and hot air so go google the detail for yourself.


Will you next be claiming that Symbian S60 does create and edit MS Office documents out of the box? Like for like, each OS requires an add-on program to do that kind of stuff. You may want to cite what S60 does that OS X in the iPhone or the G1s OS doesn't do in these terms - out of the box.


If that is what you said, and I really cannot be bothered going back on the four miles of comment, I'll concede that point gladly.


I had to read that last bit several times! How unbelievable! To suggest that Nokia are not tied in with the financial markets is to be in a state of total denial. Nokia is a listed company, a great portion of their value is in the markets share value. Their only residual strength against the global recession will be in how cash rich they are. In Nokia's case they are fortunatly strong in that respect, but the share value has been on a decline for the past 12 months from a high in Nov 2007 $40 down to around $15 today. If there develops a shareholder apathy to tech companies then Nokia could be hurt.

The markets can, and do, ruin companies and Nokia is not immune.

You asked me which Linux distribution I was talking about, and I answered the question, try reading your own posts before chucking your toys out of the pram.

And where is this vibrant and growing life outside of Microsoft? last time I checked Linux had a market share less than 1% and Apple couldn't even scrape together 10% so I'm not seeing it.

I think you should post the figures you speak of here, enlighten the rest of us, otherwise its just more bluster and hot air on your part.

Until you actually front some real facts I'll be dismissing your posts as waffle. :)

[3g-g]

My brain hurts. :(