[Ben]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/09/3_uk_loss/


Last year's losses at the 3G operator were down to £840.7m, according to the Financial Times, but most of that is because its owner, Hutchison Whampoa, is waiving interest payments on loans.

In 2005 the company lost £600m more - £1.4bn, so things are improving, but in that year the firm also paid £320.2m in interest payments, payments which have reduced to £95.1m in 2006 despite the loans not being repaid.

In total the company owes £6.5bn, the vast majority of which is held by its parent Hutchison Whampoa, which seems remarkably sanguine about the debt.

It's not all bad: the company has improved earnings by 30 per cent up to £1.4 billion, partly by shifting its customers from pre-pay onto contracts, which should also reduce churn slightly. It's also feeling confident enough to spend £15m on a new launch to remind punters it's a "mobile media company", rather than a boring old network operator.

How long 3 will be able to continue losing money is anyone's guess: five years ago the company didn't seem to have a future, but by embracing the latest technology and refusing to get involved in quad-play it's taking a considerable gamble in a traditionally risk-adverse industry, though how long 3 will be able to maintain the ante remains to be seen.
Far from pulling the plug, I think somebody needs to put the plug in! Still, they seem to be slowly stepping in the right financial direction... too slowly.

[gorilla]

If only people gave them a chance. I can basically do what I want with my three contract, unlimited data, (subject to fair usage policy) voip, sms, mms, voice, video call, download music, videos, push email.

Their call centre seems to be better now as well and their 3g coverage is second to none.

[Hands0n]

1. They are not a "Mobile Media Company" - unless they really want to go down the pan into oblivion

2. They need to demonstrate how their CS is better - I have been stung three times and will not allow myself to be subjected to the indignity again.

3. 3 have a marvelous network, good product offering, some innovativeness and a nice portal. But their apparent attitude to The Customer is demonstrably poor (and I'm choosing kind words here).

[gorilla]

I bet you're one of those awkward customers :p

In all honestly I don't believe their CS is any worse than the rest. I've been fobbed off with voda and O2 in the last year or so and as for Orange, well I'll never be back there.

[Hands0n]

Cheeky sod :p

I was one of 3's biggest advocates - bought in to them when they first launched - had huge belief in the potential of a 3G network in the UK. But 3 ruined it three times for me. Each and every occasion it was their belligerant CS in Mumbai that did it. They were argumentative, dishonest (lied blatantly), uncooperative, uninterested in my issues, blamed everything on me when I could offer proof that it was their hand at work, not mine.

So, like any good citizen, I exercised my right to vote at the appropriate time and walked away. Everyone I know who has used 3 has shared the [negative] experience. Even, a week ago, one of my staff, who is Indian herself and spoke with 3's CS in the mother tongue, is completely disaffected with 3. The thing is, 3 simply cannot afford to generate so much ill will - but they do so with consumate ease. By now it is second nature for 3's CS to render a Customer utterly frustrated such that they do not renew come the end of their contract.

Four weeks ago I walked into the Bluewater 3 store to check out their Data Dongle - it appeals to me, and I don't need two phone contracts anymore. I saw it work, I discussed with the salesman at length. But in the end , recalling that should anything go wrong I will have to face 3's Mumbai CS, I felt almost physically sick at the thought of buying from them. I kid you not, my stomach was churning. And so I walked out, went round the corner and renewed my contract with T-Mobile.

For 3 to raise such a psychomatic reaction in someone is astonishing, moreso that it occurred to me of all people!

[3GScottishUser]

Looks like another spate of creative accounting (interest free loans eh?) masking yet another painful huge loss. It's getting better for sure but that is a akin to telling the captian of the Titanic there is another teaspoon available to help bale out the sea!!

Let's think how things can improve.... New lower monthly price plans, lower termination income, reduced roaming revenues, additional direct sales costs, new mobile networks in prospect thanks to 900Mhz refarming. All of the above in a saturated market that now has the additional complication of consolodated dual/triple and quad play services.

No wonder it has been reported that HWL are desparate to offload 3 UK. Undoubtedly the biggest lossmaking gamble ever in the UK by a private company. Lucky for HWL they have very deep pockets!

[solo12002]

Oh 3GSU

Give them a chance. Im sure there many pissed of with the CS and we know that, but there are also many happy users as well.

Seting the CS issue aside, they have the best 3g coverage, best roaming charges best data plans, now free voice mail.

Can I ask how much did vodafone make in setting up at the three year point, o2, Orange and T-Mobile? Can you supply these figures? Its so easy to pick on the new boy.

As for CS lets face it three is not the only network with crap CS or CS based overseas, does Vodfone, O2, Orange and T- Mobile provide 100% UK call centres? maybe someone will advise on that?

[Ben]

Perhaps we are fickle looking for profits from such a young company, but at the end of the day they have simply failed to achieve anything notable to date. They have bought their customers in much the same way that any deep-pocketed company could, and exposed themselves to massive amounts of churn in doing so. Their 3G network is the most extensive in the UK because it has to be - it's expensive for subscribers to roam onto the UK's quality GSM infrastructure.

Customer service is an issue to be sure, but from a business perspective I'm just looking for them to sort out their financials and at least look like they might turn a profit during the next few years. I have always wanted them to be a great network, but they're also a company and if they don't start bringing home the bacon then there's no future for 3 or its subscribers.

[Hands0n]

As for CS lets face it three is not the only network with crap CS or CS based overseas, does Vodfone, O2, Orange and T- Mobile provide 100% UK call centres? maybe someone will advise on that?

I will be the first to agree that some of the other networks have outsourced overseas CS, and Orange (another HWL company of old) seems to be making is own customers very fed up with them. But T-Mobile and Vodafone CS is head and shoulders above the other three in terms of courtesy and effectiveness.

Now we know, from this forum, that even the likes of Vodafone have managed to alienate some of their Customers. And it may be that he Ireland experience is light years improvement over the UK one. But in truth, I have yet to meet anyone in the UK that has been overall satisfied with the CS experience. They, like me, will all admit to 3's very many good bits, but to a person they have all been disaffected with 3 purely through the shoddy 3rd world treatment that they have received at the hands of 3's CS.

That operation is a signal liability for 3 - and they ignore it at their peril.

[gorilla]

I think you guys should start judging three on their product and not on their CS. Show me a larger 3g network or a better value for money one in the UK today.

I've been lucky enough to have covered a large part of the UK in the last few months and their network has been great.

I will not choose a network on the quality of their CS. Why? Well, I don't believe I should ever have to contact them. Yes I'm being naive, but a good product will serve me well for the duration of my contract. The only time I've had to contact 3's CS is when I've ported my number in or out, asked for an unlock code and sent a phone back for repair.

If you base your decision to join a company (mobile or otherwise) on the feedback that company's CS has received then there will be very few companies available to you. I'm a virgin media customer, previously NTL (or is that NTHELL!). They repeatedly get my bill wrong, but their product is 2nd to none and hence I persevere.

I (as have others) have found O2's CS to be poor, but their network is beyond repair (as far as I'm concerned) and upgrading to EDGE (can that really be an upgrade?) is the last straw. The iphone will not save them, if anything they will loose money on that due to the revenue sharing deal with Apple.

Orange and Voda cripple their phones and are over priced and t-mobile doesn't have the 3g network it deserves.

Can anyone remember what this thread's about?

Oh yeah, creative accounting at 3. Well if they go bust can I get a free unlock code for an E65?

[Hands0n]

The thing is, Gorilla, I am speaking from direct experience with 3 - it is the experience that they hvae endowed me with. And as such they can only be judged on that.

It really does not matter how good the network or the product - when it goes wrong, and it will at some point, a company can only be judged on how well it resolves the Customer's issue.

In the case of 3, they have and continue to be severely lacking in that department.

Perhaps the experience is that much better in Ireland - but here in the UK mainland it is, and remains, dire!

[3GScottishUser]

It's unlikely anyone will get out of their contract or have any phone provided free if 3 cease trading. The customer base is the biggest asset and it can be sold to another network who would honour the terms 3 UK attracted the customer with for the duration of the contract. The terms and conditions protect customers from changes that are detrimental so no buyer would want to risk making changes that would loose the assets they paid good money for.

It's sad to see that what was trumpetted as a great new technology (3G) can only attract customers for a 3G only network by being cheap. 3 continue to prove that regardless of the benefits of the faster network they have to sell at a lower price than their established compeditors to have any chance of gaining a customer. That being the case, once the artificial crutch of high termination charges is removed there looks little sense in the 3 business in the UK and Ireland. It's just too small to be compeditive without massive subsidy from HWL and even their deep pockets have limits.

Sure 3 is cheap, but for many cheap = nasty and much of that impression has been a result of the horrific slap dash landgrab with little regard for customer service that 3 UK have practiced since March 2003.

I like the look of 3's new contract deals and their U-Turn on Internet and data products. I like the prices and the product range too but I am reluctant to commit to a service that friends still have difficulties with. It's a real shame and HWL appear to have spoiled the ship for a hap'worth of tar. I suspect that the whole 3 business was an attempt to repeat the success of Orange but it cost HWL dearly with them having to sell valuable prospects (like Hutch India) to compeditors like Vodafone to cover the horrific losses the 3 folly has been in Europe.

Expect 3 UK + Ireland to be sold within 12 months.

[solo12002]

"Perhaps the experience is that much better in Ireland - but here in the UK mainland it is, and remains, dire!"


Ah well Belfast is in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK! and therefore used three UK network and not three Ireland which the south of Ireland uses. so the issues you face as a user of three UK are the same we would face in NI.

Its a shame that three is only being judged on the CS service they provide which is based overseas, rather than looking at everything three provides. A lot of networks have issues to do with their CS, while I accept that most are not all based overseas I think we will find that networks will start moving them there to save money in the longer term.

Three is not perfect and I for one had issues with them a number of years ago, but fact remains they have best 3g coverage in the UK, they offer good data plans which offer things free like skype, msn, ebay etc. We now have mix and match which are good price plans offering vaule for money and we now have the best date price plans price wise of all the networks.

[getti]

I find where i travel no one can touch 3 for phone signal. I live in a dip in the sticks and still get signal all over from 3.

Vodafone have signal up the road but only just
O2 dont even know what 3G is
T-Mobile have very patchy signal (Although good CS)
Orange have patchy signal

yes i know this is only where i am in Torquay and everyone is different but from my view as a customer things are great,

And will be getting better ;)

Also 3 stores are getting more power over accounts now so you will soon only need to phone 333 if a 3 store is closed!.

[Hands0n]

Also 3 stores are getting more power over accounts now so you will soon only need to phone 333 if a 3 store is closed!.

And that might just be 3's saving grace, where there is a high street store. But where there isn't, and that would be most of the country, the buying public are still left exposed to that shambolic CS in Mumbai.

@solo12002 (and others) - Firstly apologies for excluding NI from the UK, wholly unintentional - one wonders what Freud would make of that :)

My [insistent] point about my making a judgement call on 3 because of their CS is that the CS is the make or break of any operation. Those mobile ops that have their CS in India all provide a reasonably poor quality service. The suggestion that the others will move theirs to India is unproven, and unlikely for any mobop that wishes to protect its brand. And when you look at the two companies that do not use Indian outsourced CS you'll find the two networks with the strongest brand protection policies - namely Vodafone and T-Mobile. And these two have very effective and efficient CS teams in place.

I fully accept what you all are saying in support of 3 in terms of their product, tariff and network. I was very tempted to go for their 3GB £15pm Data USB deal. But I had to walk out of the store empty handed - I just cannot face the prospect of having to deal with 3's Mumbai CS again, ever. And I fully recognise that I am one of the lucky few [on a national scale] who live and work near an accessible 3 high street store (Bluewater). Even that is not good enough for me - again because of the prospect that if the store cannot solve the problem I'm left with 3's Mumbai CS.

Sorry guys - I simply cannot get my head around this. Nor can everyone I know or have ever known who has had the 3 experience - notice the past tense. Not one, not a single one of them, have ever renewed with 3. All have moved to other networks vowing never to touch the 3 brand again. Listening to them talk with others about mobile and it is clear that they are all a dreadful advertisement for 3 - the illwill engendered in them by 3 itself will have lasting damage on that particular brand.

In truth, it is probably too late for 3 to make a recovery of the illwill that they have submerged themselves in. I think that particular ship has sank, but that the captain and crew don't yet know it - and the band plays on.

[solo12002]

" I think that particular ship has sank, but that the captain and crew don't yet know it - and the band plays on"

Oh and I can think of a link to belfast if you are talking about a sinking ship with a band, mind you it was well before my time, cant speak for gorilla mind you!

[gorilla]

Did the Larne-Cairnryan ferry sink?

Do three not do 12 month contracts any more? I think you guys should give three another shot, even if its the cheapest tariff you can get and you do it just for kicks! A three contract in the N95 is pretty damn good.

I'm going to make it my life's goal to get HandsOn to rejoin three and better yet, to promote it to his beleaguered mates.:D

[3GScottishUser]

Interesting. Not exactly scientific research but I met a young lady today at work who was sending a text on a shiney new Nokia E65. I asked her how it was as I had not seen one before and she said the phone was good but it was on 3. I asked why that was a problem and she said that she had the phone for 3 months (on a 12 month contract) and whilst she thought the tariff and features were good she had difficulties with call dropping. She was previously with 02 and intends to return to them when her 3 contract expires.

I asked just how bad this 'call dropping' was and she said it's almost unbearable. Her friends and familily keep having to call her back or she has to redial. She uses most of her allowance each month and reckons she looses connections every day. The handset was taken to Spain on holiday where it could not make or receive calls on any network! As ever the customer service proved to be nothing more than lip service, he words not mine.

That young lady (17 years old) should be a fan of 3 for all the extras she has on-board at the cost but she is far from that and if an E65 customer 3 months into a 12 month deal isn't happy I fear for 3 more than ever. She left me with something to think about as she said it was OK having all the MSN and other extras but if you can't make and receive calls the whole service is pointless.

So perhaps I will be rethinking any return to 3 UK but will seek some further user experience locally before making a final decision.

[hecatae]

3GSU has got the issue in one.

I'm a long standing 3 customer, since my 6630 back in 2005.
My sim will work on:

3
O2 still allows roaming
Orange allows roaming

All new customers only have 3 and Orange, prone to call dropping on Orange and 3 can have issues in low coverage areas.

[Hands0n]

I'm going to make it my life's goal to get HandsOn to rejoin three and better yet, to promote it to his beleaguered mates.:D

Oooooooh! A challenge :cool:

[solo12002]

I think we should all club together and buy him one, with the rue of not having: access to any other mobile or sim for a year :mad:

LOL

[Hands0n]

There'd be some clubbing going on if you did that, and I'm not talking MoS :p