[Ben]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/17aa89d0-500b-11dc-a6b0-0000779fd2ac,dwp_uuid=e8477cc4-c820-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html


The contract, which was signed by three European mobile operators in recent days, requires that the operators hand over to Apple 10 per cent of the revenues made from calls and data transfers by customers over iPhones.

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The contract was signed by T-Mobile of Germany, Orange of France and O2 in the UK, people familiar with the situation told FT Deutschland, the Financial Times’s sister paper.

The operators are set officially to announce the partnerships at the IFA trade fair in Berlin at the end of August.
If true, I think this news is disappointing. Vodafone will be the only major UK player without the iPhone in its portfolio in any of its markets, and I think they'll take a hit for that where O2, T-Mobile and Orange can look to shareholder excitement on this news.

The subsidy comment is interesting:

Apple has also lured the mobile operators with the prospect of a financially risk-free business, as it will not allow the now common subsidies on the sale of handsets. Most mobile phones are sold by operators to subscribers at a highly subsidised rate.
So will we see £400 iPhone's with super-value tariffs? Are O2 actually going to provide some decent tariffs and improve their data offering to make an O2 iPhone worthwhile?

And finally, what the hell am I supposed to do? :p I don't want three contracts, but I wont cancel my Orange one and I can't imagine life without Vodafone (aka being able to call and text anywhere reliably, in my experience).

I think the technical term is bugger.

[3g-g]

I know Orange supply their handsets to the whole group collectively, so it's the same handset type and lock that goes to the UK, France, Poland, Spain etc so that should mean being able to get hold of one in France and being able to use it on Orange UK without any issues, I think. Hopefully O2 and T-Mobile run their handset supply the same way, so getting a German iPhone should run alright on TUK.

I wonder how long the exclusivity period lasts for with Apple and O2 in the UK?

I agree with you Ben about the situation for Vodafone and the handset, however, we can already see how poor Vodafone's offerings are for data services, perhaps they're just not willing to take the hit on an exclusive data tarriff knowing they're creaming the rest of their customers for data elsewhere. They might end up with a revolt on their hands!

[Ben]

That's the thing, Vodafone's data tariffs aren't the worst. They do actually have a consumer data bundle now, and their mobile broadband is reasonably priced. They have the quality differentiator, IMHO.

I hope you're right about the handset locks. Of course, this will be largely in Apple's court, so it really depends on whether they can differentiate between SIM's from mobile networks in different countries but belonging to the same group. You can bet that if they can, they will.

For some reason I think that these details we're getting now are the actual ones, not just idle speculation once again. The timing just seems right. I mean, for a launch this year the negotiations really couldn't drag on any longer.

I, personally, have consigned myself to purchasing an iPhone. For such foolishness I suppose plenty of punishment is wholly reasonable.

[bsrjl1]

Now I understand why a few contractors I know have been employed by O2 to implement EDGE in a hurry :-)

[Ben]

They're going to try and roll out EDGE on their GSM network, do you think? EDGE speeds could make the iPhone completely tollerable. For a while ;)

[3g-g]

Now I understand why a few contractors I know have been employed by O2 to implement EDGE in a hurry :-)

Surely not network wide? Into city centres and similar places only perhaps? I didn't think O2 had that many Ultrasites out there, everything I seem to see is old Talkfamily stuff, in the central belt of Scotland at least...

[Hands0n]

Oh well, that seals the deal for me then ..... The iPhone is most definitely off my shopping list for 2007. Clearly, we're getting exactly the same one that the Shermans got earlier this year. GSM 2.5G - why would anyone really bother when we've a vibrant 3G network in Europe. This is not continental USA by a long chalk.

Apple's decision seems to be their usual perfection though - their marketing boys and girls are normally spot on. The iPhone will sell as well as it did in the USA - and no one will really care about EDGE instead of 3G. Truth be told, I wouldn't care either but ..... My major reservation is that (a) its O2 and (b) they are having to upgrade (!!!! ffs) their network to EDGE.

I believe that we can be absolutely certain of marginal to none functionality over and above basic 2G once outside of the major cities and, perhaps, the Motorway corridors. Also, I am not prepared to believe for a split second that O2 have any intention to implement EDGE throughout their incumbent 2G network taking it to 2.5G. That simply does not make sense for a single handset - especially as they made such a botch up of their 3G network as it stands. No, instead, I believe that O2 will do as much/little as they need to deliver 2.5G services to major conurbations and stop there. In consequence, there will be a number of dissatisfied iPhone users - but the hype will drown out their complaints.

For sure, the Gen.1 iPhone is an incredible device that has broken a number of moulds and delivered a radically new paradigm in the MMI (Man Machine Interface) in the way that Apple has done in its other technologies. Apple specialise in MMI - they just understand how we do things naturally and bend the technology to suit us rather than the other way around. So yes, the iPhone will succeed here as it did over there.

Me? I'll wait out the iPhone Gen.2 or Gen.3 exactly as I did with the iPod. When it comes out in a form (3G) and on a network that suits me (anyone but O2) then I will take the plunge.

That, is my advice to anyone contemplating one of these. If it suits you now and you're absolutely sure then go ahead on day one. But go in with eyes open. Especially if you're not in a major city.

[gorilla]

The subsidy comment is interesting:

So will we see £400 iPhone's with super-value tariffs? Are O2 actually going to provide some decent tariffs and improve their data offering to make an O2 iPhone worthwhile?

Are you actually thinking that uk consumers are going to splash out £400 en mass on a mobile phone, with a contract on top, possibly for two years (like the states)? Another clever marketing ploy by those smart business suits. ;)

Now we all know that this phone shouldn't even be discussed on this forum :p but it's getting ridiculous what you lot will start to tolerate just because it's an apple product. Let's put our wallets away for once and concentrate on getting some facts in. It can't really be on O2, that's commercial suicide for apple.

mmmm I know lets go with O2. They've got a great network and a really good customer base. They'll all want an iphone.

Having to upgrade to edge is another commendable argument why people shouldn't even bother with O2. I'm used to 3g data speeds now and am quite happy with 3. I have a nice reliable E65, so all in all I'm very 'mobile' these days. I can understand why Ben and HandsOn bang on about reliable networks as I now feel 3 are. (no talk of CS here please :rolleyes:)

What I would have like to see is apple signing with 3. Now here me out. 3 could get rid of their 3music store and replace it with itunes. There you go, almost instantly you have loads of customers with a £5 per month music allowance, which goes straight to itunes. What sort of revenue sharing are apple going to get from O2? Currently O2 offer nothing.

[Hands0n]

Gorilla makes some excellent points and I didn't even have to pay him this time :D

[THREAD HIJACK]
I'm not sure that I can stretch my sense of goodwill enough to agree with iPhone on 3- I'm still smarting from my last experience with 3 some two years ago. Nothing I've seen has improved their chances of getting my business - but it has to be acknowledged that my direct experience of everything about 3 [with the sole exception of their CS] has been positive on the whole.
[/THREAD HIJACK]

So, all in all, if the iPhone were to appear on 3 then I would have to give it very much more serious consideration than O2.

Now lets turn to O2's failed ventures. They really seem to not have much of a clue, with a lot of thrashing around trying to find the magic bullet that eludes them constantly. Anyone remember iMode? What were they thinking? The money they spent on that abortion would have been better spent on making their 3G network function properly and adequately. "Half baked" seems to be their motto. If anyone is going to cock up the iPhone experience in the UK it will be O2 who seem more than capable of snatching failure from the hands of success.

Put bluntly - I trust O2 a lot less than I trust 3 - and that is a result of direct experience of the two companies.

[Ben]

Now we all know that this phone shouldn't even be discussed on this forum :p but it's getting ridiculous what you lot will start to tolerate just because it's an apple product. Let's put our wallets away for once and concentrate on getting some facts in. It can't really be on O2, that's commercial suicide for apple.
Now hang about just a grand spanking minute there!

First off, we're in OT Discussion here, so Talk3G or no Talk3G, it's iPhone until the cows come home and that's just fine ;)

I appreciate that there's apparent truth in your comments about tolerating imperfection just because of Steve Job's reality distortion field. Sure, there's plenty of hype surrounding Apple, and Steve plays the media well, but under the thick layer of gloss there are plenty of reasons why the iPhone is on my shopping list and why, to an extent, the network that it resides on will do little to change the inevitable fact that I'm buying it.

18 months ago I'd never owned an Apple product. I, like many, looked at Mac's in particular as the PC's poor cousin. iPod? Surely every other MP3 player is as good as that by now, I thought, as I bought a Sony Walkman.

Getting my first Mac changed everything. Apple are a software company. They're a software company that believes making great software means making the hardware as well. This unison of hardware and software is so overwhelmingly and glaring apparent when you own a Mac that you begin to realise something - perhaps Apple had computers right all along.

By the time I slipped for an iPod the rest of the world already seemed to know they were the best MP3 player you can get. Just how much better my iPod is than my Sony Walkman (NW-A1000, gorgeous, but crap) shocked me to my core. Why is the iPod so great? It's a software product. Software wrapped in Apple's hardware.

So, then, when the absolute worst thing about all handsets available on the market today is their software, and I mean all handsets on the market today, it's somewhat of a revelation that Apple have once again written a software solution - and wrapped it in their legendary hardware. Only recently I have been grumbling on here about Symbian, and my distaste for Windows Mobile is also widely known, fuelling my belief that the iPhone represents much more than another handset on the market without 3G. It all comes down to the software.

Now, give it six months and we may all be here declaring Apple's first stab at handset software a failure. One thing I know for sure is that, this time, I'm not waiting for everybody else to discover Apple's latest and greatest (?) only to cotton on years down the line.

[3g-g]

Erm, sorry for interupting. But, a few months ago were O2 not in line for a huge OFCOM fine for not getting their 3G network up to coverage levels within the specific timescale (as every other UK 3G network has managed to do)?

So, explain to me how they've suddenly the resource, time and money to deploy EDGE across their network at, quite possibly, the request of Apple?

Perhaps the UK iPhone will be a right money spinner and out weigh the possible fine from OFCOM, but I doubt it! Have O2 just given up on that fandangled 3G nonsense?

My feeling on it is that O2 have been the network to bend over and take it tight, not complaining about anything just to get their hands on the iPhone first. The UK is one of, if not the most competitive and advanced GSM/UMTS playgrounds in the world (excluding Japan). My thoughts would be that there are a lot more reliable/stable/more advanced GSM networks to choose from. Read; Vodafone's GSM, Orange's EDGE... in fact, everyone's GSM network other than O2!

Baffled!

[Ben]

My feeling on it is that O2 have been the network to bend over and take it tight
That sounds about right. And they should get fined for their pitiful attempts at 3G, IMHO. If they didn't want to build the network they shouldn't have bought the licence.

[gorilla]

I have 2 ipods. The nano is pretty good. I can find my music fast, but my 40gig 4th gen, forget it, and certainly not while driving:eek:. Not that I advocate using an ipod whilst driving or that any other 40 gig beast will be any better.

I'm generally not an apple basher, but the pricing of the iphone sucks. That's a hell of a premium to pay for a jumped up nano. :D

Right, I'm off now. Not waiting around for the abuse to start.:o

[bsrjl1]

Erm, sorry for interupting. But, a few months ago were O2 not in line for a huge OFCOM fine for not getting their 3G network up to coverage levels within the specific timescale (as every other UK 3G network has managed to do)?

So, explain to me how they've suddenly the resource, time and money to deploy EDGE across their network at, quite possibly, the request of Apple?

I believe they initially went to Nortel to provide their 3G RAN, which was pants so they decided to swap out to Nokia (4/5 networks prefer it). I think problems meant it took longer than expected & impacted on their 3G rollout. EDGE is a software update/feature activation for most recent BSCs.

[Hands0n]

Why anyone buys anything Nortel is beyond me. They not only produce crap equipment but they lie about it barefacedly. I was engaged in a huge project which involved a ton of Nortel mis-selling. Unfortuntely, no one listened and we went ahead with it. The loops and hoops that had to be jumped through just to make it fit were incredible. In the end it worked - but some of the technology (i.e. their Meridian "digital" telephone switch) is as old as The Ark itself! Everything, just everything, Nortel simply sucked - had we gone Cisco the project would have not only worked but come in much cheaper!

Don't talk to me about Nortel - it'll only start me swearing ;)

[gorilla]

The Irish Times is reporting today (can't find the online story - sorry!) that two programmers have 'cracked' the iphone and can use it on th O2 Ireland network. It invloves using two sims, cutting one open and fiddling around with it. The only application that doesn't work is the visual mail. So, why restrict yourselves to O2 guys? The 2 guys behind this say they are working on a software solution (as I suppose are thousands of others) so you may be able to get the iphone on your preferred network afterall.

[Ben]

Indeed, there are reports of the iPhone being used on T-Mobile also, and without having to use the 'turbo SIM' hardware hack that was originally being used by unlockers.

[gorilla]

Experts hack iPhone to work in advance of Irish release (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/0824/1187332461078.html) by John Collins


A small number of Irish iPhone owners have hacked the devices (which combine the iPod with features of a high-end mobile phone) to get them working on Irish telephone networks, months before they are expected to be for sale in the Republic.

In the last week, two Waterford-based programmers, Paul Watson and Jason Madigan, have managed to get US-sourced iPhones to operate on O2 Ireland's network.

Mr Watson confirmed yesterday all of the features of the iPhone were operating, with the exception of visual voicemail, which allows voice messages to be managed using an e-mail-like interface.

It was reported earlier in the week that Apple has signed contracts with O2 in the UK, Orange in France, and T-Mobile in Germany to exclusively launch the combined mobile phone, music player and internet access device in advance of the lucrative Christmas market.

Other countries in Europe will have to wait until 2008 for an official iPhone launch, when it will also be released on the Asian market.

It is believed the operators have agreed to a revenue share with Apple, something they have previously resisted giving to handset manufacturers.

When asked if O2 would be interested in launching the iPhone on the Irish market, a spokesman declined to comment. With regard to the use of hacked iPhones on its network, the Telefonica-owned operator said in a statement, "O2's customer terms and conditions do not prohibit the use of devices on the O2 network that may have been initially or previously used on another network."

The hack used by the Irish programmers is highly technical, as it involves cutting up a mobile phone Sim card and editing complex configuration files on the iPhone. Information on how to to do this is published on the internet.

It also requires purchasing a Turbo Sim card from Bladox for €59 and installing this in parallel with the operator Sim card. Mr Watson said a software-only system which would be easier for non-technical users to implement is being developed.

[3g-g]

EDGE is a software update/feature activation for most recent BSCs.

And hardware for 4.1 Nokia GSM BTS. There's new transmitters and baseband cards to be installed to implement it, and all I ever see from O2 is old 3.3 stuff... So, although they might be able to implement it on the BSC side no bother I imagine there'll need to be a huge deployment of EDGE enabled Ultrasites in order to fulfill Apple's requirements. Which, IMO, is money down the drain considering 1. the money paid for 3G and 2. there'll be a 3G iPhone eventually, Europe couldn't go any other way!

Do Apple already have such a strangle hold on the operators with a completely unproved product? The USA is easy, it's nowhere near as advanced as Europe, and if the iPhone is a stinker it'll be found out pretty quickly, fancy iPod or not!

[bsrjl1]

http://www.connect44.com/news/news.asp?ID=64

iphone UK o2 network 20.08.2007
In order the iphone can be released in the UK on the O2 network. NSN has contracted Connect44 Managed Services to carry out the BSS / OSS activation on the entire network.

(I assume they mean EDGE!)