[Irish3GUser]

Guys,

Just wondering if someone could give me a quick overview in the limits of HSDPA in terms of users in a cell. For example is a basestation only has 2mb backhaul, what would be the real limit in terms of users on the 3 cells to HSDPA speeds? Also 3 in Ireland are saying their network will be at 14.4mbs by Christmas??? I cant see how they can get these speeds if they are still using TDM microwave backahaul, the most i could imagine them having on the backhaul microwave for a cell site would be 4x2mb?

Is there a limit on the air interface also? I know in Ireland they can use 2 freqs so by adding another freq in would basically double the cap of the cell but then would you still be limited on the backhaul?

3 have launced mobile broadband in ireland but the whole network has now ground to a halt and i reckon it's because of over subscription and lack of capacity. Speaking with CS, 3 reckon they will have this fixed in 2 weeks but i seriously doubth that based on my assumptions above, it's going to take alot of network upgrading to get capacity increased.

Any comments, thoughts appreciated.

[Ben]

Hi, welcome to Talk3G.

In terms of the bandwidth available in any given cell it can, of course, only total the bandwidth available on the backhaul. Realistically I guess it'd be quite a bit less, as no single user should be able to saturate a cell. The current speeds of ~1mbps here in the UK seem to be working well in the real world, but when things go through 3.6mbps and above I can understand your concern.

I think BT are managing Three Ireland's network? If so, isn't there a good chance that high-capacity fibre is running to a good many masts? I don't know much about microwave backhaul, but I'd have thought fibre was the preferred method of connectivity as we reach higher bandwidths.

As the available bandwidth will be contended I can only imagine customers getting 14.4mbps in quite limited circumstances, and certainly off peak.

Has the Three Ireland network really become bogged down? Is it locally, or are you able to verify that nationally? For them to be having capacity problems so soon would be surprising to me, unless BT have plenty of dark fibre just waiting to be lit up. I don't think the air interface will be suffering, HSDPA is pretty capacious, relatively speaking.

Now someone who knows what they're talking about will come along ;)

Edit:
It looks like the thread you mentioned (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055115306) in another post is showing up all of the drawbacks of using HSDPA in a full-on Broadband deployment. Here in the UK there are no such deployments, as 'mobile broadband' is still relatively expensive. The result is a service with hundreds of thousands of dispersed users and excellent service (speaking of Vodafone, here). Inherent issues such as relatively high ping times compared with ADSL and the sharing of one public IP amongst many completely firewalled subscribers are important reasons why mobile operator supplied broadband just isn't ready for the prime time.

[Irish3GUser]

BT manage the rollout and maintenance of the network but BT would not be able to provide fibre to the sites, 3 prob wouldn't want to go down this road either due to cost issues. I know a guy who does some work with them and he told that all their network is backhauled on mw.

It's a shame really, they're kinda a victim of their own success in some ways, it was a great service when it first launched but now it's really bad, it's actually slower than dial up. The shops over here couldn't keep up with the demand for the product, maybe taken a bit by suprise.

There are alot of very unhappy customers who feel they have been conned so to speak, coupled with the customer service in India which is terrible ( we used to get CS from Scotland, which was good)

[3g-g]

Guys,

Just wondering if someone could give me a quick overview in the limits of HSDPA in terms of users in a cell. For example is a basestation only has 2mb backhaul, what would be the real limit in terms of users on the 3 cells to HSDPA speeds? Also 3 in Ireland are saying their network will be at 14.4mbs by Christmas??? I cant see how they can get these speeds if they are still using TDM microwave backahaul, the most i could imagine them having on the backhaul microwave for a cell site would be 4x2mb?

Is there a limit on the air interface also? I know in Ireland they can use 2 freqs so by adding another freq in would basically double the cap of the cell but then would you still be limited on the backhaul?

3 have launced mobile broadband in ireland but the whole network has now ground to a halt and i reckon it's because of over subscription and lack of capacity. Speaking with CS, 3 reckon they will have this fixed in 2 weeks but i seriously doubth that based on my assumptions above, it's going to take alot of network upgrading to get capacity increased.

Any comments, thoughts appreciated.

If Three Ireland aren't paying for their own backhaul network then they really are going to be at the mercy of the 3rd party unless they want to spend the cash. I don't see a lot of 2Mbit supplies to sites nowadays (nothing to do with 3 these comments), 3G sites tend to have a minimum of a 4MBit, some with 8, but that's real inner city stuff, and again, these are all operator owned, not 3rd party supplied. I'm also starting to see a lot of STM-1 and more recently STM-4 MW radio be deployed, that's 155Mbps and 622Mbps to you and me!

I think the restriction over the air interface is only down to the level of software release on the relevant Node B, as well as the cards deployed on site. I believe there is an option for a fibre input/output but I've never seen one installed. most can only take a 8Mbit max input. I also don't think many operators are past release 5 iirc, which is the 3.6Mbps link over HSDPA.

If Three Ireland have a big SW release coming up you might notice a change, but that's only dependent on what they've supplied their 3G sites with. I'm amazed they've not tried to keep up with the demand seeing as their network seems to be suffering from some sort of choking!

[Irish3GUser]

well just to let you all know, 3 Ireland were on a national drive time radio program here in ireland to defend the state of the network, has not gone down well, apparently there was a big "upgrade" last wend, changed ISP or something...service is terrible still....3 have really shot themselves in the foot in Ireland with this one...

[Ben]

Thanks for the update Irish3GUser. Doesn't sound good at all :( At least they bothered to defend themselves - many companies wouldn't.

Did they come up with any reasons why service had become so poor?

[Irish3GUser]

You can listen to the interview here if you like..not sure it answers any major tech questions, however they did go on air with a disgruntled user..

http://wallofsound.eu/FileStore/Audio/Last_Word_3_Broadband_Discussion.mp3

It was prompted by people from the www.boards.ie, chat board forum in Ireland, some of the guys have been in touch with head of Communications, Racheal Channing..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055115306&page=40

I also read today, HSDPA service will be launched in UK soon...

[getti]

VERY soon (and this time i mean it lol)

[getti]

First of all i need to say this is not information posted by myself. It is a quote from another website who has the information so again its not from me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mobile phone users on 3 UK's network will soon be able to get ultra-fast mobile broadband on their phones with next month's launch of 3Turbo, 3's high-speed 3G HSDPA service.

3 users will also be able to choose from a range of new data usage deals that will offer unrestricted access to web-based services, including VoIP.
3 UK is launching its 3G HSDPA (High Speed Downlink Packet Access) mobile broadband service under the 3Turbo banner. It's aiming to spread the message of high-speed content downloading and web surfing on mobiles.
The 3Turbo mobile broadband service will be available on a selection of HSDPA-enabled mobile phone handsets, as well as with a new USB modem for laptops that 3 is releasing at the same time.

3 is also introducing a spread of 3 new data tariffs. Mobile Broadband Light offers 1GB of data usage for £10 a month, Mobile Broadband Plus allows 3GB of data usage for £15 a month, and Mobile Broadband Max, gives 7GB of data usage for £25 per month.
HSDPA-enabled 3G network

The three deals will be available for USB modem users, while the first two of these deals will be available as add-on data packages for existing 3 handset subscribers at launch. The Max add-on will be made available later this year.

3's HSDPA-enabled 3G network will be capable of maximum data download speeds of up to 3.6Mbps, although 3 is advertising the service at its realistic real-world rate of up to 2.8Mbps. The 3Turbo mobile broadband service will launch on 3 September.
The roll-out of 3's HSDPA service will be in stages, with the first phase including northern England (north of Birmingham), Scotland, Northern Ireland and inside London (between north and south circular) - covering around 50 per cent of the UK population.

A series of roll-outs will expand the service across southern England, covering 85 per cent of the UK population by December this year. 3 expects it to expand to 90 per cent of the UK population by July 2008.

[solo12002]

Wow looks good, I can see me getting rid of my home BB. Shame the prices appear to be higher than Ireland where its 19 euro fo 10GB

[Ben]

Yeah, shame about the price difference, but 7GB at 2.8Mbps for £25/mo is a good rate.

Edit: The timing would be just right for a big student push ahead of University terms kicking off.

[gorilla]

It's a good start. And let's face it, it's not before time. If google gets its mits on spectrum overhere as they are likely to over in the states, then they may introduce a viable alternatively to mobile phones and that will probably screw the current incumbents.

[Ben]

It's a good start. And let's face it, it's not before time. If google gets its mits on spectrum overhere as they are likely to over in the states, then they may introduce a viable alternatively to mobile phones and that will probably screw the current incumbents.
We can always hope! ;)

[Hands0n]

Two things immediately spring to mind:-

1. Customer Service in Mumbai - I'll say no more on that, we all know the score.

2. Blimey! Three could well become the UK's first mobile ISP - a radical shift from their old Walled Garden days. Students and those in rented accommodation will be natural candidates for their Max service - even their 3GB Plus is good value and could suit low-volume users (web and mail for instance). This launch could definitely signal good things for 3 if they are serious about taking on the ISPs like this. And why not?

That Student/Rental market is enormous for the first mobile operator brave enough to take it on - something I thought T-Mobile would go for, but they seem to be retrenching a bit.

What the UK badly needs is a viable nationwide WiMax operator to shake the mobile operators out of their [Mobile Internet] complacency. But of course, by then it will be all too late for the mobops in that particular arena.

[gorilla]

I suppose you've got to way this up against the days of dial up. Just for a comaprison you understand.

When I was a student at the end of the 90's broadband was very expensive so it was a no no for students. Dial up on the otherhand was falling in price e.g. £9.99 for unlimited use. Now that sounds good but whenever you have 3 guys all wanted to use napster it wasn't very useful. Particularly as it took 20 mins or so to download a track.

So fast forward to today where you have kids fully expecting their house to be kitted out with wi-fi and you have a decidely different market.
Every student has at least one mobile.
They most certainly have access to broadband at home.
So, do they want to get into a contract while at uni? Probably not. So 3 could be onto a winner here. Not everyone spends their time surfing, downloading music and vids, so for the average person 3gb will be plenty. It will allow them to surf, send email, do some research (yeah right:-)) and download the odd album.

The price is about right, we just have to see if their network can stand up to it.