3: It's £25 to downgrade

[3GScottishUser]

From Mobile Today 20/12/2006:

3 has taken another step to curb the poor-quality business that has harmed it in its dash for connections, by charging downgraders a £25 administration fee.

Downgrading customers can only avoid the fee by extending their contract by six months instead. The move comes six weeks after 3 introduced strict downgrading rules, as it tries to stamp out the active encouragement of downgrading as part of the sales pitch of many dealers and retailers.

Customers who are willing to pay the fee to downgrade will still have to wait 12 months before they can downgrade on an 18-month contract.

Some dealers have expressed concern that the move is retroactive and could cause big problems for dealers whose existing customers who have bought with the expressed intent of downgrading, often by several tiers.

One dealer said: 'We aren't worried about the new business. But it's going to cause a massive wave of complaints from existing customers who want to downgrade. They are going to say, “You told me I could drop my tariff to £20 and now you are telling me its going to cost £50 to do that”.'

Others have welcomed the change. Another dealer told Mobile: 'It's a good thing to have been introduced as it will stop people from encouraging customers to downgrade, which in turn loses the network money and gives dealers a bad name.'

A 3 spokesman said: 'We've been consistently competitive in the market this year and we are committed to partners who give us good-quality business.

'This step is not a significant change and is in line with other steps we've taken this year to deliver quality business. It means there is clarity and consistency for customers.'

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/content/15400.asp?men=0&sub=1

[Ben]

Hmm.

Why not charge the dealers £25 every time one of their customers downgrades while under contract? Perhaps that'd help weed out the dealers who recommend higher tariffs in order to get a customer a free phone and then tell them to downgrade after x months.

Customers didn't adopt this process en masse all by themselves. Networks should stop punishing them for their own retarded sales channels and tariff stuctures.

[Hands0n]

Hear Hear - totally agree. Once again the Customer is being penalised for the actions of the shoddy dealers. Wake up Mobile Network Opertors, it is Us the Customers whom you depend on, not those Charletains called Dealers! Grrrrrrrrrr

[3GScottishUser]

I think Ben should be applying for Bob Fuller's job!!

Well maybe not.... but commonsense suggests that 3 should be holding dealers responsible for this downgrading problem. Its been happening for ages. The dealers (mainly the big multiples) are happy to advise you to take an expensive tarriff that you don't really need to get a cheaper or free handset and they explain the downgrade process to clinch the deal. Fine as long as the networks honour the terms when customers bought their phones but in the case of 3 they are not doing so and they stand to upset the very people they need to continue in business.

I agree that dealers should bear the clawback or penalty for downgrades but perhaps its easier hammering the customer than taking on those who still feather 3's nest.

All in all, absoluteley disgaceful that any network should shaft customers like this and I'm positive 3 will have simply increased their churn behaving in such a punnitive fashion. New customers should also take note and many potential ones will no doubt hear the warnings from those affected.

Bad move 3 UK!!

[andrew.cheltenham]

Icommonsense suggests that 3 should be holding dealers responsible for this downgrading problem. Its been happening for ages. The dealers (mainly the big multiples) are happy to advise you to take an expensive tarriff that you don't really need to get a cheaper or free handset and they explain the downgrade process to clinch the deal. Fine as long as the networks honour the terms when customers bought their phones but in the case of 3 they are not doing so and they stand to upset the very people they need to continue in business.

This does raise a couple of good points that 3 seem to be ignoring:
1. Legally 3 are responsible for how their contracts are sold by the dealers they use - according to my chat to Which?
2. Networks legally have to honout their terms. If a term is changed the customer has 30 days from 'notification' to cancel their contract without penalty. This is consumer protection law.

In my particular case I just found out about this 'admin' fee, when I complained 3 said that I was mislead by the dealer. Bit of a bo-bo there by 3, as they are responsible for how their dealers.

When I questioned I had not been notified they stated that they only notify changes in price plan, otherwise it was up to me to check the web for changes. Bo-bo number 2. In June 2006 Ofcom warned 3 that just updating the web-site was in fact tantamount to introducing 'hidden terms' to their contract. 3 agreed with Ofcom that in future all changes would be sent to customers.

As 3 have done so many things wrong in this case customers are now actually entitled to 'terminate' their contracts. I have started the ball rolling on this process, and boy the Indian call centre is struggling to deal with this with their scripts.

[getti]

Phones 4 U are the worst for it. We have had so many people come into work and kick off about the free because P4U SOLD the contract stating they can downgrade later on.

Then when the customer goes into P4U they get no help what so ever and are just told nothing they can do, go down to 3.

To be fair its really p*ss*ng me off now and if 1 more person comes in store saying P4U have sent them down I am personally going up there to sort someone out.

[3GScottishUser]

If a network decides to change the rules affecting existing customers then it's hardly surprising that dealers will refer them to the network directly as there is no way they could have forecast that 3 would have punished customers who simply tried to change a contract within the conditions that applied when they signed-up.

Not really fair that P4U are sending folks to 3Stores but there is some logic and I suppose staff in the 3 outlets have to expect detrimental changes to be brought to their notice.

This was a very foolish and shortsighted over reaction by 3 UK desparate to retain revenues and it's likely their silly penalty will loose them 100's of customes and word of mouth will loose them even more. Its a trust issue and 3 are paying a heavy penalty themselves for this punitive measure with their staff having to spend time justifying the stupid charge rather than selling new contracts! It could be argued that there is some justice in what is actually happening!!

It would have been more sensible to have taken the loss on the chin and made it clear to new contract customers that new conditions applied.

[Hands0n]

3 still have not grasped the basic philosophy behind "goodwill" and "badwill" - they keep treating Customers like we've nowhere else to go.

In my immediate circle of friends, family and associates I [truly] know of noone who would even contemplate buying anything from 3. They have heard or experienced enough horror stories to put them off for life. Those of the aforementioned who are at this time locked into a 3 contract have pledged that they will go elsewhere at renewal.

Okay, fair enough, this may well be an isolated group of people, and in the big scheme of things not at all significant. But for every single person disaffected to 3 there are ten more in that individual's circle who will be aware of their attitude towards 3. Such is the butterfly wing effect of badwill, and 3 seemingly have attracted that in great abundance.

It will do them no good.

[3GScottishUser]

Aye....

Its a trust thing for sure and when things change to the detriment of a customer the anger is usually quite something shared with others.

Poor 3 have now had to retreat to a £15 a month contract level to attract interest. £15 a good offer for a neat SE k610i with 500 X/Net mins (even better when you get a free 512MB flash card or 8 months 1/2 price line rental) but it shows the levels they have to drop to to gain any attention. Could anyone including 3's senior management have believed that they would have to provide a free handset and offer what amounts to most customers monthly call usage on a 3G network for 1/2 of what the incumbents charge? I suppose they hope they will gain revenue form texts (possible) and content (bad gamble).

Looking at www.reviewcentre.com and other consumer sites the feedback re 3 is still pretty negative. A few die-hards supporting the pricing with others moaning about support, changes to terms and the oft repeated network problems (call dropping/network switching issue).

I suspect 3 have got to the bottom of where they can go with the value proposition and wonder if their reputaion is now so poor that their offer might be outwith consideration by many mainstream customers. This might also be because the range of handsets is far more restricted on 3.... it has some nice options but for those who are not concerned about 3G it probably looks pretty poor.

[3g-g]

How's this for a pushy sale and obvious 3rd party dealer incentive to sell Three, which, IMO, have only created their own problem...

My sister a few weeks ago, before ditching O2 funnily enough, received a cold-call upgrade stating they were from O2, you know the ones, they say they're from the network but have no idea of your phone or current tariff... anyway, they explained she could get a new camera/mp3/bells and whistles mobile, it was only by chance she was due an upgrade anyway, so she (stupidly) agreed.

A few days later a new mobile arrived at the house. Was it an upgrade? No. Was it on O2? No. It was a brand new Three contract!! :eek: Now someone tell me other wise that there isn't financial reward to some of these cowboys for pushing specific networks, they must make a fortune from the networks. And as I said at the start, Three, and the others for that matter, have only created the problem themselves.

Needless to say I made her send it back, unopened the next day and she never heard anymore about it. Thank God!

[Ben]

Argh! I'd still recommend they pull their credit report from Equifax or Experian to make sure Three don't have an active credit account running.

[andrew.cheltenham]

Not really fair that P4U are sending folks to 3Stores but there is some logic and I suppose staff in the 3 outlets have to expect detrimental changes to be brought to their notice.


There is a very logical reason for doing it - the call centre is next to useless, as they have their script and that is it.

It would be great if 3 actually tried to help their staff out on this one. I went into a store, and asked for the current contract. The immediate response was "it's on the web". I might as well have called the call centre for that reaction.

I have asked the call centre for list of changes made between when I took my contract out and the current one. "Sorry sir we do not keep old versions of contracts". Oh great, no help yet again.

I have asked for how many different version of contracts have been issued since I took my contract out. "Sorry sir we do not have that information".

Do 3 customer services have any information?

[3GScottishUser]

It's strange that 3 behave like this when previously they have published their older tariffs on-line.

Latterly 3 have become very reactionary and are now tightening up all the loose ends that have been used to generate all the 'poor customers' they moaned about in their last company accounts.

Strangely they blame dealers and distributors for the lax credit checking, downgrading and huge churn levels!! I might be wrong but did'nt they themselves create all of the circumstances for these and they appeaed happy enough when the contracts were flying out the door increasing their uptake. After a period of reckless expansion they paid a heavy price in 2006 and the crackdown on the dealers has extended and hit consumers directly.

If 3 UK had a decent customer service operation and good user experience i would have said they might just have got away with the moves they have made recently but they have a dreadful reputation for most things and their offshore call centre simply pours petrol on the flames of discontented customers. They are simply fuelling further animosity both from dealers and customers and have probably squandered any shred of postive reputation they had left, With the Big 4 networks now collaborating and offering attractive converged services the whole 3 business looks more vulnerable than ever. Sad, but what happens when a company abuses its key potential asset, its customers.... memories of Gerald Ratner???

[Hands0n]

Sad, but what happens when a company abuses its key potential asset, its customers.... memories of Gerald Ratner???

Yea, but only now its the Customers that are "crap" not the product. :mad:

[andrew.cheltenham]

Yea, but only now its the Customers that are "crap" not the product. :mad:

So 3 is too good for it's customers :D :D :D

We are being treated like mud for our own good are we :confused:

The problem is 3 mad a massive miscalculation on how many customers were going to take up the free downgrade. In plain business talk they f...ed up.

They cannot blame their sales channel for hooking customers in with whatever is allowed on a contract. They should have done research out in the stores to see how their product was being sold. Did someone in 3 not think, "wow a huge upturn in sales, I wonder how our product is being sold differently now to make such a big change?"

Remember Hoover when they were giving away free flights with every machine? Made perfect sense if only 1% took it up unfortunately 100% wanted to apply for the flights. Were the customers right to complain - I think so.

[3GScottishUser]

3 or rather HWL have an enourmous amount of arrogance when it comes down to producing excuses for their failure to date.

It's the quality of the customers that is to blame for the churn rate and the inability of their comapny to be able to generate the revenues the incumbents can attract?

[andrew.cheltenham]

Just been speaking to 3 after discussions about terminating my contract because of the £25 downgrade fiasco. The rules have changed again...

Now the rule is (as far I can make out from what I was being told on the phone):
1. If you downgrade £5 there is no fee, and you can do this once a month (I think).
2. If you downgrade more than £5, and there is nothing stopping you going from £100 to £25 (the new £15 price plan is excluded) then there is a one off £25 fee.

When I asked was this in response to Customer complaints the response was that "marketing like to change things from time to time". :D :) :D

[getti]

That is correct. You can drop 1 plan at a time for free with a maximum of 4 times in the whole contract.

You can drop down from the top plan (£100 a month) to £20 a month for a £25 charge but only after you have completed 6 months of the contract or 9 on a 18 month contract.

HOWEVER (and this is what REALLY pi**es me off!).

I have been choosing between T-Mobile or 3 as my own contract provider. When i think about choosing 3 its the CS that lets it down.

Tonight i have FINALLY chosen to pick T-Mobile mainy as international use is cheaper and modem use.

I phone CS to downgrade my plan from £35 to £20 a month and get told i cannot do this until my WHOLE contract has been completed (12 months).

I said well i work for 3 and have been told TWICE now that this downgrade not applying for the whole 12 months is for contracts started from 1st March and onwards..... and as my contract was upgraded 29th January i would be able to downgrade at least after month 6. The CS lady went silent for a few minutes and then said 'please hold'.

She then came back saying nope i have to use all 12 months until i can change my plan. That would have been the final straw for me if i had already not decided to leave.

Annoying thing is i was paying them £150+ a month for the last 7 months but when i said i wanted to cancel 2 days ago they said what can they do to keep me.

1st i asked to have Wireless Web 56 free for modem.... they refused.

2nd i asked to be moved onto Personalise Plan which to be honest was more money a month AND an extra 6 months......... again they refused.

So when i said well i will cancel they said there is no point, just use it or transfer to someone else!.

TO cancel my contract will be £210 which is not much over my average spend a month, you would think they would have done SOMETHING for me.

I have no problem working for 3 as the actual network and services are really good, but the CS is awfull. Its better for customers to go into a store and ask a question than phone CS!.

Anyhoo thats my rant over!. I phoned t-mobile and said i am moving from 3 to them (already have t-mobile setup) and they were really happy. I asked what video calling minutes as a bundle they offer and its £2.50 for 10 mins to any network and even international networks.... but as i was joining them and left another network they are giving me 20 mins free video calling a month!.

Now i have had to phone T-Mobile CS about 5 times for different things as i have never been with them before. EVERY TIME the service was superb. English speaking, great service.... could not be happier.

If you have any questions with 3 dont phone CS.... just PM me and il try and help all i can

[3GScottishUser]

Is'nt the case with Flext that T-Mobile review your usage pattern and offer to up/downgrade your price plan to suit your needs? I know customers who have been offered higher priced plans when they have exceed thier monthy inclusive bundled allownce on Flext, just wonder if they are as proactive offering reductions/downgrades..???

[Hands0n]

I've not had a downgrade suggested to me and I am over my initial six months with T-Mobile on Flext35. That said, I am happy with my spend as I was spending lots more on 3 at the time. Now I have Web N Walk Plus I am also getting 3GB of data for the £12.50 and I couldn't be happier.

I can completely echo Getti's words of compliment about T-Mobile's CS. They know what they're on about, and they are [much more importantly than anything else] effective in solving problems and issues.

I can also completely echo Getti's words about 3's CS - it is without question the most dire CS of any of the UK networks. They barely understand their product, they work strictly from scripts and have no ability to solve anything that is not scripted. Their Customer empathy is zero. They are, in my opinion, completely worthless and do untold damage to 3's Customer reputation which is in tatters. I know of noone who has a good word to say about 3's CS other than to make excuses for them out of some kind of brand loyalty. In short, I guess that I am not completely taken with 3's CS operation :D

[getti]

I know of noone who has a good word to say about 3's CS other than to make excuses for them out of some kind of brand loyalty.

This used to describe me. However not any more. I will defend the network and the services on offer but not customer services.

I also had a bad experiance with Orange a few days back. I applied online to see what they can offer me, when i phoned the CS person the next day to check on the status of the order i explained i was with them before and owed a small amout of money which is now down to about £20 left to pay.

he basicly told me to forget it as i had owed them money before, i should not have even bothered applying and should not have wasted someones time to check over my application. However they would be happy to look into it again once the money was totally paid off.

The guy's attitude stunk and the way he spoke to me was just really poor. I said if they think im going any further with an application they can think again, i told him to cancel my aplication and i hung up (which is not like me).

I have had experiance now with all the UK networks and to be totally honest the best by a LONG shot is T-Mobile.

[Hands0n]

Ugh! How horrid of Orange to be like that with you. I think I'd have been inclined to have ruined that particular chaps day by making a formal complaint.

I tend to rank T-Mobile and Vodfone alongside eachother. My own personal jury is out as to which is the better. For me they do perform remarkably alike, fast, efficient and effective, always courteous and if they don't know they find out and call me back. I don't think I could want more. Also, it is not costing me any kind of premium against the other mobile operators - so it cannot be anything other than the correct CS ethos driven from the top down.

Contrast 3 - they care about the Customer just about as much as the ex-MD Bob Fuller who thought we were all the "wrong type of customer" for 3.

Contrast O2 who hide behind a number of different CS operations depending on how/where you bought your contract. Expensive 0870 numbers lead you to yet another Indian operation which is uninterested, uninspired, innefective and just plain lacklustre.

I realise that others will have completely contrasting opinions and experiences to these - but it will take some convincing to make me even consider the possibility that 3's CS is reformed to be on par with T-Mobile and Vodafone, the market leaders in my opinion and experience.

That said, even as little as seven months ago it would have taken a huge persuation to convince me of T-Mobile's efficacy. I had poor experience of them when they were One 2 One. It didn't improve when they became T-Mobile. The new MD has gone and put a real sparkle into that company.

The networks really are led from the top, and if uninspiring it is a direct reflection of the leadership.

[3g-g]

I also had a bad experiance with Orange a few days back. I applied online to see what they can offer me, when i phoned the CS person the next day to check on the status of the order i explained i was with them before and owed a small amout of money which is now down to about £20 left to pay.

he basicly told me to forget it as i had owed them money before, i should not have even bothered applying and should not have wasted someones time to check over my application. However they would be happy to look into it again once the money was totally paid off.

The guy's attitude stunk and the way he spoke to me was just really poor. I said if they think im going any further with an application they can think again, i told him to cancel my aplication and i hung up (which is not like me).

Hang on a sec, just in some defence of the O... ordering online tells you right away if you've passed the credit check, so why were you needing to call to check the status of an order? Was it refered or something?

And also, if I was a company and someone came looking to buy some sort of service from me, someone who still owed me money, i'm pretty sure I'd be rather short with them also. I'm not defending the guys attitude or approach, but it's a situation you've found yourself through your own doing.

Last point, do you not get a good deal with Three, why the need for another phone!?

[Ben]

Lol getti, you applied to Orange while you still have money owed to them? Maybe you should clear that up before buying that PS3 ;)

[getti]

Its £20 though lol. I said that will be paid when i get paid next friday. If it was £100+ yeh i could understand but the amount of attitude for £20 was just silly

[Ben]

That's not how these things work. If you're on a payment plan (I assume you were?) then it's a bit like going to a shooting range wearing a bullseye. It could be for £5 or £5000, it doesn't matter, the insinuation is still that you can't afford to pay.

[getti]

Ah well its all sorted now :D

[getti]

Moving back on topic, even though the £25 is now waived if you move 1 plan at a time this all depends on WHO you speak to at CS.

When i asked too i was told i cant move down as it was a new contract and i must wait the whole 12 months. Where as the day before i was told yes i can after month 6 of 12.

And again the time before that (i wanted to see if they all said different) i was told you can downgrade ANYTIME as long as you pa the fee. So when i asked too she said.... oh wait... you have not been on your contract for more than 6 months... no you have to wait to which i pointed her back to her original answer of you can downgrade ANYTIME!.

Thats the problem with 3 CS. A lot of the time its read off a script and if anything is not on there they wil just stick to a story or choose an answer.

The official line in store though is you can downgrade after month 6 on 12 and 9 on 18 to 1 plan below your own for free (upto a max of 4 drops). Or you can downgrade from your plan to any for a £25 charge.

That has already started

[andrew.cheltenham]

Oh dear just got my response back from Ofcom, and 3 may have something to answer to. To quote the response to my question stating 3 should have notified customers of the detrimental change in the downgrade policy they stated "We think that on the basis of its terms and conditions 3 should have notfied you of the imposition of the downgrade fee. We are notifying 3 of Ofcom's concerns in this regard....[stuff about which terms etc.]...we do intend to address 3 on the lack of notification to customers..."

Unfotunately Ofcom cannot decide if a term is "unfair", and only a court has power to decide this.

Maybe 3 will not listen to their customers, but 3 will have a hard time using a script to beat off Ofcom from their door.

Next stop the small claims court, although 3 are giving me a good run for my money. I did not pay the bill issued to me on the 1st March, and today I received a letter of their Debt Collections agency. Even though my account is supposed to be under dispute. At least their debt collection systems are working.

[Ben]

Next stop the small claims court, although 3 are giving me a good run for my money. I did not pay the bill issued to me on the 1st March, and today I received a letter of their Debt Collections agency. Even though my account is supposed to be under dispute. At least their debt collection systems are working.
In my personal view, you must always, always pay bills that are issued to you in these sorts of circumstances. You can always recover the money later.

Your credit history, on the other hand, is very easy to damage and very hard to fix.

[andrew.cheltenham]

Your credit history, on the other hand, is very easy to damage and very hard to fix.

That is what companies rely on when they try and bully you into paying something.

If you can show agencies like Experian that the account was in dispute they will normally reverse the decision promptly, but best to contact legal advice. It is a pain, but I was so hacked off with the attitude of 3 I felt it was worth it. A safer way of doing it is to submit payment, but enclose it with a letter saying you are paying under protest and without prejudice.

My downgrade ordeal is, I hope, over. 3 agreed today to waive my downgrade fee, and I actually spoke to someone that was willing to go off the script to see how they could resolve the matter. It was funy though to find out that my dispute had been recorded as resolved on their system. Pity they didn't tell me that - oh I forgot 3's motto "It's good to talk - NOT"

[Anushree]

hi

As per the T&C's of three its clearly mentioned under points to note that we may charge the anytime for change pp,also this rule was introduced as the customers and the dealer were taking un due advantage... for change pp or let it be a new contract as well,also if there is something given in black and white why not read it first and join the service provi8dor because at point of purchase no rep will read the T&C's for the customer,Its the type of customers as well who contributes towards the behaviour of cust service rep who trying to help because abusing or shouting on rep is no good..........

[3GScottishUser]

hi

As per the T&C's of three its clearly mentioned under points to note that we may charge the anytime for change pp,also this rule was introduced as the customers and the dealer were taking un due advantage... for change pp or let it be a new contract as well,also if there is something given in black and white why not read it first and join the service provi8dor because at point of purchase no rep will read the T&C's for the customer,Its the type of customers as well who contributes towards the behaviour of cust service rep who trying to help because abusing or shouting on rep is no good..........



3 charge to downgrade where allowed now and they don't advise customers in advance, hence the warning!

[Anushree]

as i said b4 thereis t n c sheet given which u shd check also wen a customer joins 3 as per contract they need to b on da same pp for a minimum term we have given them a flexibility to chng pp

[3GScottishUser]

Not allowing any changes to the tarriff during the contract term is totally inflexible. Most UK networks have afforded customers some form of downgrading facility and it's sad but understandable that this is now dissapearing. Some unscruplious dealers have been deliberately using the downgrade option to sell high value/high commission contracts that were totally unsuited to customers needs.

Folks now have to be aware that when they sign on the dotted line or push the entrer key they are commiting to paying the full amount advertised over the minimum period. If they are joining 3 there is no cooling off period after the phone has been used for any purpose.

All things considered the phrase 'buyer beware' has never been so appropriate as it is now in relation to mobile phone purchaces.