[3GScottishUser]

From Mobile Europe (16/11/2006):

Fewer walls, not much broadband (yet), two handsets; lots of partners

3, which can’t shake off irritating rumours it is for sale, certainly made sure its X-Series announcement was the big news for the day. Hutchison had brought along its own top bodies, including Canning Fok, group managing director, Frank Sixt, group finance director, and Christian Salbaing, group finance director. Also speaking at the press launch were top names from Microsoft, Google, Ebay, Yahoo!, EBay, Skype, Sling Media, Orb Networks, Nokia and Sony Ericsson. Quite a line up.

The theme was that by introducing flat access fees with no extra charges for usage, 3 was finally opening up mobile to the experience users get on the broadband internet. 3 is calling these mobile internet services its X-Series, and is launching X-Series in the UK in December, with other territories to follow next year.

Speaker after speaker endorsed the vision and the strategy, until by the end it was possible to believe 3's cleaners might have got up on stage to extol the virtues of tearing down the walled gardens and opening up the mobile internet to the outside world.

Yet, for all the talk about mobile broadband, where is 3 now on HSDPA? Well, still in roll out phase, although the company has previously said it would have HSDPA phones available by Christmas this year, with the network completed in 2007. But for now, the phones the X Series is launching on, the Nokia N73 and the Sony Ericsson W750i, are not HSDPA phones. (Nor is WCDMA even available throughout the country, and how much use would GPRS be for most of these services?)

As for pricing, Graeme Oxby, 3 UK's marketing man, told Mobile Europe that there would be two bundles. One would be for more “basic” comms services such as Skype, messaging and search. The other would included the richer media stuff from the likes of Sling and Orb. Neither would be very expensive he said, certainly nowhere near the cost of a typical monthly spend. Nor is the operator intending to set its fair usage levels at a height that means it will collect on inevitable customer over-spend, Oxby said.

So to the services. First of all, Skype. Here, 3 is offering free Skype calls to or from a mobile/ PC to other Skype users. Skype in and out, Skype's premium services, will be available later next year. Users do not need to have a Skype client on their PC to use the service, they can get up and running from a stand along Skype client. But clearly in the short term 3 is interested in attracting the 136 million existing Skype users that may be attracted to 3 if they knew they could continue Skyping on their mobile.

Oxby said that the operator is genuinely unconcerned about cannibalising other voice revenies. “It doesn't really matter a lot to us, as long as people are using 3,” he said.

Also free in the package will be search from Google. Oxby admitted that the implementation of the Google toolbar within Planet 3 was not so different from the way other operators have worked with Google. But he said that 3's broadband internet vision meant that further mbile versions of Google's other services were much more likely. Existing partners Microsoft and Yahoo! were also at the feast.

We also saw a demo of Sling Media's and Orb Networks' services. These companies are somewhat similar in that they offer remote access to content that is normally only available on your home PC or television. Both were quick to praise 3's vision, with Sling's ceo Blake Kirkorian saying he was, “Disappointed 3 is not in the USA. In fact I'd like you to buy one of our stodgy operators.”

Orb's general manager for Europe, Scott Monson, told Mobile Europe that in fact with some US wireless networks already providing broadband speed, over there he was able to offer the Orb client independent of a deal with operators. But the deal with 3 allows him to get a decent user experience, optimized to 3's network, to users in Europe. Orb is a client-server based system that allows users to securely access their PCs over broadband, and access any digital content they have on the PC. Sling lets users watch TV when they are away from home, again by users dialing in to their broadband modem, which in this case is connected to whatever digital TV service they have. Both of these services will be part of 3's more pricey bundle, but will be free to use once the access fee has been paid.

The promise is that you will be able to record and watch TV, your own TV, wherever you are. Of course, this is liable to compete directly with operators' own “TV” services, streamed over 3G and any future broadcast mobile TV.

So there we are. No walled garden, but a series of preferred partners for each of the services (VoIP, IM, search, TV etc) you might want to use. The promise of broadband internet over mobile, but not much true broadband internet coverage. And two handsets.

Impressive, but much more impressive than T-Mobile's Web n Walk? Yes because there are IM and VoIP services, and you don't have to access everything through the browser. Yes, because from what we could see the user experience was sweet. Yes, because there is the nice fancy stuff from Sling and Orb.

No it's not total freedom to everything, anywhere. But it's a start. Does Arun Sarin still want to buy?

http://www.mobileeurope.co.uk/news/news_story.ehtml?o=2614

[Hands0n]

3's Customer Services, the experience from Hades.

People, seriously, stay away in droves. If they'd at least said one word about improving the CS for what is going to be an altogether more complex proposition I'd be moderately optimistic. As it is, my only thoughts on this are; Wait till Vodafone buy them and jettison the Mumbai CS :D

Nuff said!

[3GScottishUser]

It strikes me this is simply a Web'N'Walk alternative with a few extras.

The Slingbox video streaming is a diversion as it is hardware dependent and wont be a runner for many and the Skype service is only to existing SKype PC users.

If the above was not restricted enough X-Series is only going to be available on 2 handsets!!

Oh Yes and there's the customer service implications..... (scary).

When you add up the total of the individual parts it does not amount to much really!! Especially for the mass market.

Another own-goal for 3 I suspect!!

[Hands0n]

Really, I am very interested at 3's developments in this area, especially as it is in stark contrast with their former walled garden approach. They treated the Internet with complete disdain, as did they their own customer's wishes. A change in attitude, a change in management? The demise of that idiot Fuller? One can only live in hope.

It is still [apparently] a highly controlled access into the Internet, not quite on a par with the free-for-all you get with home broadband or even T-Mobile's Web N Walk, which they chose to compare against. No comparison really, fully and open Internet access is what is wanted, not gimmicky tendrils of access for very specific purposes. Perhaps they haven't explained their proposition clearly!

The Rub
But, and having been a victim of theirs several times now, I would not countenance, nor recommend anything from 3 while they maintain that utterly dire so-called Customer Services operation in Mumbai. That team would not know or respect a Customer if one walked into their office premises! It is, to 3's complete shame, an utter shambles. Noone I know who has experienced them has had anything but dis-satisfaction. By contrast, 3's UK CS are as efficient as one would expect of a UK-based team. But they are closetted away, until the entire bucket of poo has hit the fan, by which time the Customer is completely disaffected and only wants to leave!

[Ben]

I see this as an incremental evolution of Web n Walk, nothing more. I look forward to seeing how the prices compare.

Until a network operator with some actual beefy infrastructure in the UK comes out with flat rate data pricing I'll remain relatively unexcited. I'm mostly referring to Vodafone here, but Orange also to an extent. I believe Vodafone has the best chance of offering anything like usable broadband over the airwaves, which is just as well as everyone else seems to have jumped into bed with fixed line services.

[3GScottishUser]

Yes it's an enhanced Web'N'Walk... but can you use your handset as a modem? And why is it restricted to just 2 handset models? Very Limited.

[miffed]

Yes it's an enhanced Web'N'Walk... but can you use your handset as a modem? And why is it restricted to just 2 handset models? Very Limited.

i agree totally with the "Selected handsets" garbage - Don't know who Three think they are impressing with this crap

another problem is that I am SURE Three's data doesn't travel at true 3G speeds (which isn't very good considering I get a regular 700kbps - 1.1mbps on T-mobile !! ) Frankly , browsing on my lg u8110 , and the Three e61 I had breifly , seemed comparable to 2.5G GPRS speeds (40kbps ? ) - with the LG I had put it down to being an old phone - but it was just as slow with the e61 (which on t-mobile vanilla 3G , ABSOLUTELT FLIES !!)
Surely this problem will be exarcabated with these new services ? or maybe the will use the HSDPA uprgrade as a marker for increasing performance

IMO though Three are simply crap at 3G

[3GScottishUser]

The laugh of the whole nonsense of X-Series is that neither of the handsets that they will launch with are HSDPA compatible.

The SonyEricsson W950i does'nt even have a digital camera!!

What are 3 UK thinking of with this half-baked stuff?

[getti]

3 will have 2 prices for xseries. The main one gives you 512mb data, 2000 mins skype, 6000 msn messages, 50hrs slingbox and all at hsdpa if you can get it. This costs only £10 a month

this month will see the n93 and lg u830 hsdpa phone come out with the lg u310, 8gb nokia n91 and the nokia 6288 out in december before christmas

[Hands0n]

512MB data is not very much at all ... what are the out of package data prices? Ditto for Skype and MSN.

HSDPA handsets will be vital to the success, or otherwise, of this for 3. Their 3G network speed/throughput is not famous for being particularly fast or efficient as has already been pointed out.

This is one party I'll not be going to though.

[miffed]

512mb ????

I'm sorry - I'm sure I heard someone say this was better than Web'n'Walk ?

:rolleyes:

[3GScottishUser]

Indeed..... I think X-Series is a simple branding exercise, an attempt to develop a different identity that might be more acceptable to potential customers due to the poor reputation 3 have.

I agree, there is nothing particularly new in this and I don't think I will be bothering with it. Prefer to await other networks responses, especially those who already have HSDPA commercially available.

[Ben]

3 will have 2 prices for xseries. The main one gives you 512mb data, 2000 mins skype, 6000 msn messages, 50hrs slingbox and all at hsdpa if you can get it. This costs only £10 a month

this month will see the n93 and lg u830 hsdpa phone come out with the lg u310, 8gb nokia n91 and the nokia 6288 out in december before christmas
Surely that's not right - Three have given every news outlet in the world the impression that the service is uncapped and, well, something special.

Even if some HSDPA capable phones arrive, isn't Three's update to HSDPA planned for next spring? Shouldn't they really have announced X Series then?

[miffed]

Still frustrating that they give you the data with one hand , then restrict how you use it and in what quantities with the other - Why can't they just provide unrestricted data access like everyone else ? Their old excuse ( Because their customers "don't want" content that isn't optimized has worn so thin now it is no longer relavent , hell, my last Three handset COULD NOT ACCESS ANY optimized content whatsoever !! )
So why the restriciton now ? - or is is simply to make a few quid from selling licensing to a few partners ?

So how much is the higher rate of Xseries then ?

Bearing in mind WebnWalk Max (which DOES allow IM & VOIP + is £44

I imagine for Three to be boasting about How much better Xseries is than W&W , it would have to be considerably cheaper .... and then you have to keep in mind that with Three you'd be tied to their bedmates , whereas with W&W you are free to use whatever service you already use , or would like to use

[miffed]

oh look !

http://xseries.three.com/

[Ben]

Looks like we'll have to wait until December for the nitty gritty.

[getti]

The info i posted was from inside 3 so is pretty accurate

[3GScottishUser]

The big question is how much will 3's x-series cost?

It has some tough competition already with Flext 35 + Web'N'Walk available from T-Mobile that provides up to 900 X/Net mins, 1800 SMS or 900 MMS + Unlimited Mobile Browsing (1GB Fair Use) for just £35 a month. If its handset based browsing one needs the above provides it and many more minutes and texts than the comparable VTT700 tariff that 3 currently offer. If they intend charging another £10-15 on top of that then they will have major problems justifying the price.

3's x-series may be better with some additional features (Slingbox and Skype) but for most the key feature will be open Internet access on the mobile and a flat rate has to be a much better proposition than paying per MB.

ATEOTD it will all depend what you use your mobile for. For most its not going to be an issue as the vast majority just want voice and text. A few will be tempted by unlimited mobile browsing but the numbers who want to buy a Slingbox and watch home recorded shows on a mobile screen or access their PC on the move must be minute simply due to the complexity of the services and the limitations of the small display on a mobile device.

Hopefully others will now mimic what T-Mobile and now 3 are doing and provide fixed rate pricing for mobile Internet access. Its the only sensible way to get folks to use it without fear of charges etc.

[getti]

Its £10 a month

[3g-g]

Its £10 a month

On top of a normal tariff? Or £10 and that's it?

[miffed]

But if the £10 a month is for the measly 512mb , how much is the grown up version ?

Isn't it a bit wierd that the two devices that would benefit most & make fullest use these features (the E61 & Qtek9000 ) aren't going to be supported ? maybe Three are quite aware of the fact that anyone use either of these devices effectively wouldn't have bought them on Three in the first place ?

[Hands0n]

How does this compare with WNW? Price-wise it is £2.50 more for what seems to be limited Internet access, or am I reading this wrong? 512MB vs 1GB FUP.

No sign of a WNW Plus comparison £12.50 for unfettered Internet to the mobile or use the mobile as a data modem for a PDA or PC with a 3GB FUP.

Okay, WNW does not have the other bits and pieces such as the remote TV, PC and Skype ...... but they are not being given away inclusive of the £10, are they? I read it as you "can" do these things, not that they are a given for the £10. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[3g-g]

Just while I was reading this again it seemed so familiar... *goes off in that movie type wavy screen way*

https://talk3g.co.uk/showpost.php?p=16892&postcount=1

I mean, I don't want to have to say I told you so, but I will. I told you so! :D

[3GScottishUser]

Just been reading that the Slingbox software that 3 have been showing off will be available for all Symbian Series 60 handsets. This makes sense as I dare say Slingbox need as many customers as possible to be able to use their remote Video facilities.

Still can't imagine buying a box though at £179.99..... one of those 'nice to have toys maybe'?

[getti]

The £ is on top of your normal rental.

That is also the full on version giving you data, MSN, sling, orb, skype etc....

[3g-g]

Still can't imagine buying a box though at £179.99..... one of those 'nice to have toys maybe'?

Eeep! 180 notes to watch my own TV? I think I'd just set the Sky+ via my mobile and watch it when I get home thanks!

[miffed]

Okay, WNW does not have the other bits and pieces such as the remote TV, PC and Skype .....

www.logmein.com

"remote control" is free , you have to pay for file transfer -but it is pretty cheap and a good reliable service
As for the slingbox stuff , I beleive some people have been using "orb" to get a similar thing going on , obviously you need to set up a TV tuner on your PC - and you also need to be on W&W Plus- but it should still work fine

[Hands0n]

www.logmein.com

"remote control" is free , you have to pay for file transfer -but it is pretty cheap and a good reliable service
As for the slingbox stuff , I beleive some people have been using "orb" to get a similar thing going on , obviously you need to set up a TV tuner on your PC - and you also need to be on W&W Plus- but it should still work fine

Sooooooooooooooo, for £2.50 more [with T-Mobile] you have 2.5GB more data per month to play with, plus the ability to do most/all that 3 are offering in their proposition, courtesy of some cheap/free downloads.

Still, I'm with other commentators - the mobile phone screen is inadequate for this kind of stuff, unless you have some kind of dire emergency - possibly. I truly would not want to even attempt to do anything on a tiny screen that I normally do on my 19" TFT at my desk. TV on the mobile is novel, but has not proved to be the "killer app" for 3G.

I'm left with going back to comparing the Internet proposition from 3 against that of T-Mobile and, given that most could afford the difference in price, the latter scores higher in terms of value for money.

Look - what I believe is needed is a direct point-by-point mobile version of the domestic landline broadband offering. Lets say £11 per month for the voice with £14 per month for open Internet access. Forget the bells and whistles, sell these as extras if you like, but lets get the basics on the go. There is a huge market out there in the rental and student accommodation world who would likely snap up all that can be made available. It'll be another Flext revolution, but this time with Internet being the hook.

All of this constant tinkering, and that is all that it really is, will just continue the confusion among the non-buying public who will wait until there is a clarity of offering that they can understand fully. Today, that really does not exist - possibly save for an emerging sense of clarity in T-Mobile's "Flext + Web N Walk Plus" package - but that is fairly expensive and does not [in price terms] meet the traditional landline+ADSL proposition.

[3GScottishUser]

I think some here have hit it on the head when they have tried to separate the practical and useful services from the deliberately confusing padding.

I suppose all the operators try to make what they offer look as comprehensive as possible but once one gets beyond the hype its clear to see that the useful mobile Internet application is Mobile Web Browsing. Being able to view and navigate webpages on the move could prove an attractive addition if its reliable and priced for mass take-up. T-Mobile appear to have done some research and that has led to their Web'N'Walk add-ons. Simple all you can eat web browsing on a wide range of handsets at a single figure monthly fee. Its useful, but its not something many will be able to use for hours on end due to the limitations of the display on a phone. Folks need to feel comfortable about the charge and justify it re usage and I suspect many could with the standard Web'N'Walk bundle.

Pushing the limits of the technology is always interesting but sometimes you end up with services for technology's sake rather than practical for users. Mobile videocalling must be the clearest example of this. People did'nt warm to it because it's siimply too impractical for normal communication. Accessing your PC from a mobile is fine but in these days of remote PC connection its probable that those who need that type of facility will have a proper device (like a PDA, laptop or remote connection) to provide it. I just cant see labourers, train drivers, shop workers and hospital workers reaching for their mobile to access PC data..... far easier to simply load the required files onto your memory card already in the phone!! The same applies to the Slingbox proposition, its actually even more unlikely due to the need for additional hardware. Finally there's instant messaging and Skype which in reality is a voice based instant messaging client. These are fine for occassional use and Skype is by far the most practical due to mobile phone keypad limitations but having to wait until someone comes on-line is a restriction that renders the service far less useful than simply calling a phone number. In these days of greatly reduced call charges I cant imagine many being patient to get a free call when they want to talk. Skype in/out would solve the problem but then we are back to square 1 as its charged by the minute for outbound calls and its very possible you could end up paying Skype more than it would cost to make a mobile call!!

Setting aside the obvious impractical but interesting technology gimmick services it's really all about charges and bundling. Skype is attractive on PC's because it provides cheap/free communication but its rendered useless if you get Orange Broadband and all your calls to landlines and 100 countries are free anyway!! Same applies with Skype on mobiles. 3 might like to think you'll buy their x-seies then convince your friends and relatives to get one to make free Skype calls, but that could be an expensive solution to a simple charging issue that Vodafone Family can solve for £5 a month and without the need for new technology!

So we have some new services on mobiles, some are not very practical but push the bounderies which is refreshing but the main consideration must go beyond the hype as many of the 'packaged' useable services can be found elsewhere and often cheaper. I don't know about others but I am now past the stage of bothering about call charges now with totally fixed rate calls via VoIP at home to all landlines I ever call and some mobiles. I have more than enough inclusive X/Net minutes, texts and MMS in my monthly fixed rate price plan. The only think missing now is freedom to surf the mobile Internet at a fixed fee and I would'nt pay a great deal as I have free PC access all day, every day like millions of others at work!!

I just wonder how much thought has been put into 'all embracing' services like x-series? One can see why HWL have moved to offer it as they have run out of options re traditional tariffs and probably dont want to drive the market down any further as it would affect them as well as everyone else. They more than anyone else are hungry for non-voice revenues as thats what they claim makes them unique and different, so they are throwing whatever they can at consumers in the hope that something will appeal. Interesting approach and it makes sense to some extent but the danger is that the range of services will be too complex for most customers and the pricing reflecting the diverse range of extras will be less attractive than simple Add-Ons like Web'N'Walk where customers can assess value easily. Its a brave gamble by 3 but I predict x-series may suffer from the same problems 3 now have with their mobile Video, Talk and Text bundles. You get a range of different services but for many there are things that they pay for that they don't use and the competition have recated by targetting the core services most mobile users understand clearly, which is why VTT now looks poorer value than Flext 35 or 02's 750/750 offer. Its a funny old world and sometimes those close to the business cant see the parallels but I predict x-series will struggle to compete with simpler, cheaper more sharply targetted services like Web'N'Walk and others that will surely follow.

[Hands0n]

I think the thing with x-series is that it is likely to be way too complex for the average Joe. And surely, that is where the volume business lies. But 3G has a way bigger problem - people just do not understand nor want it! Most everyone I talk with, techie or layman, have the same attitude to 3G "We don't want it, quite happy with my existing service". I don't think this is the Luddite at work - they have access to exactly what they want, and cannot understand why they are being pressed to buy into something that they have neither the time nor inclination for.

Take a walk through any shopping mall - Bluewater is my nearest and a good example - and you will be able to observe a large percentage of people wandering around with their phone glued to their ear. Look closer, and you will see that the vast bulk of these phones are 2G - and many of those quite old models at that. Look closer still, how many are 3G, and then how many are being used in 3G mode (i.e. for more than calls and texts) - and you'll see single figure percentages. How many are browsing, emailing, IM'ing, Videocalling, Videomessaging, Voicemessaging etc......? My observation is that the answer is none, if any at all!

So, are we truly to expect that x-services will convert these masses to the Orb, Skype and Slingbox applications? I mean, generally, folk use mobiles on the move, to either chat or send short messages. Generally where they have time to sit in front of the PC or the telly, that is precisely what they are doing. Few, in relative terms, actually want to access such services on the move.

I would contend, then, that these relative few are insufficient for 3 or any of the others to make a significant profit from services like x-services.

So, returning to the drawing board, we are faced with a back-to-basics prospect. What do folk want? Voice, text and, increasingly so, Internet. The latter not always to the handset, but [perhaps via the handset] to a laptop or PDA. But to date, data has always been punitively charged for - until the advent to T-Mobile's Web N Walk which the other operators have yet to address.

Sorry 3, and anyone else who thought this was it, but the 3G killer app has not been found. And I predict that it will never be found as it exists only in that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

What the networks would be better off doing is opening up the data aspect to sensible tariffs (flat rate preferably) and thereby becoming the enabler for those that are content creators to be able to launch their stuff over the connectivity. The networks are currently being greedy by trying to own all aspects of the media chain - and they're not doing at all well. They need to don the mantle of ISP to the airwaves and make their money doing their core business, which is providing the communications.

[3g-g]

What the networks would be better off doing is opening up the data aspect to sensible tariffs (flat rate preferably) and thereby becoming the enabler for those that are content creators to be able to launch their stuff over the connectivity. The networks are currently being greedy by trying to own all aspects of the media chain - and they're not doing at all well. They need to don the mantle of ISP to the airwaves and make their money doing their core business, which is providing the communications.

I'd thought at first there may be a reason behind the fact that the networks hadn't done this (flat rate charging), trying in my head to defend them, thinking of reasons other than cost and "scaredy catness" as to why they don't want to take the plunge and become the supplier. Perhaps it's a network architecture thing, you know, all the ISP's have huge 155Mbps pipes all over the shop... then Orange popped into my head. What's that? You're already an ISP as it is are you? With the backbone already you say? Well how about you grow some b*llocks and get with the flat rate mobile charging too! Get your traffic over that huge loop you have round the UK already!

BT make a fortune from re-selling their IP stream to 3rd party ISP vendors, and, to make sure they've got it sewn up, created Openreach so they could contract out the maintenance of it as well! Brilliant! Someone get the board over to the UK mobile operators quick smart!