[6Kingsley]

Hi

I have just purchased a Nokia N70 phone, it is locked to the 3 network. Is there any way I can unlock this phone so that I can use it on other networks? I have tried contacting 3 but they will not supply me with the unlocking code because the phone is registered to someone else. I bought the phone on ebay in good faith but now can't use it. Help!!!!!

[Ben]

Hi, welcome to Talk3G,

I'm afraid there is no third party unlocking solution for this handset available yet :( If you absolutely need it unlocking then I'd suggest returning it to the eBay seller. Perhaps they can have it unlocked by Three (though they may charge over £100) or give you a refund. Alternatively you could purchase a ThreePay USIM card from http://www.three.co.uk/ and use that - perhaps porting your old number to it?

Sorry I can't be the bearer of better news!

[6Kingsley]

Thanks for your quick reply Ben.

[etccarmageddon]

ask the bloke who previously owned the phone to ring '3' and tell them that he has sold it to 'mr xxxxx of nn drive etc etc' - it could be a data protection issue. as long as he makes '3' aware that ownership has passed then there shouldnt be a problem. if you still can not get anywhere ask the previous owner to write a letter outlining the new ownership to you and you copy this signed letter to '3' - if that fails contact ofcom with a copy of the letter and complain that '3' are attempting to restrict use of the phone. you may get somewhere. the only issue I can see is if the phone is still within the original owner's contract period.

[Ben]

the only issue I can see is if the phone is still within the original owner's contract period.
See, even that shouldn't matter. Our contracts with the operators are airtime agreements, not hire-purchases. When we take away our new phone it belongs to us.

[Hands0n]

Precisely, title to the handset passes to us upon receipt. The mobile op only retains title to the SIM/USIM. If the mobile op bleats on about subsidising the true handset price then that is tough luck on them. You did not ask them to and so they made to you an unsolicited gift [in the subsidy]. There is no contract in fact, implicit or in tort relating to the handset. It belongs to you 100%.

[cyberkid999]

Precisely, title to the handset passes to us upon receipt. The mobile op only retains title to the SIM/USIM. If the mobile op bleats on about subsidising the true handset price then that is tough luck on them. You did not ask them to and so they made to you an unsolicited gift [in the subsidy]. There is no contract in fact, implicit or in tort relating to the handset. It belongs to you 100%.


I think you need to read the contracts. If you accepted a Free phone it was obviously very heavily discounted and if the network claims anything back from the dealer if you cancel, the dealer is fully entitled to either ask for the phone back or charge you the SIM free price of the handset. this is in the T&C of most if not all dealers - its certainly in mine from CPW. Thats one reason they use a credit card for ordering even though they dont charge anything on it. ie you get new contract - network pays dealer massive commision - dealer gives you free phone - you cancel contract early - network calims back commsion from dealer - dealer calims back phone or payment. and all is fair in love and war....

[cyberkid999]

Precisely, title to the handset passes to us upon receipt. The mobile op only retains title to the SIM/USIM. If the mobile op bleats on about subsidising the true handset price then that is tough luck on them. You did not ask them to and so they made to you an unsolicited gift [in the subsidy]. There is no contract in fact, implicit or in tort relating to the handset. It belongs to you 100%.


the dealer is usually the one that gives you the free phone and yes its yours but not if you cancel your contract early due to your own fault and not the networks. its in my contract that if I cancel within the 1st 6 months they can claim the full SIM free cost of the handset from my credit card.

[Ben]

AFAIK if you cancel your contract early you pay the full 12/18/whatever months worth to the network anyway - an end user can't just cancel their contract because they feel like it, otherwise it wouldn't be very much of a contract. In any case, you still pay the airtime agreement, the handset is yours to keep.

So... I'm a little confused :S Can you post the contract terms you're referring to?

[Hands0n]

you are so wrong.....the dealer is usually the one that gives you the free phone and yes its yours but not if you cancel your contract early due to your own fault and not the networks. its in my contract that if I cancel within the 1st 6 months they can claim the full SIM free cost of the handset from my credit card.

What you have highlighted is that there are Dealer contracts that do in fact tie you in to their specific clauses. It is up to you, as the buyer, to verify what you are getting into. I had something similar where the Dealer tied me into his portion of the dealer discount received from 3 if I cancelled within 6 months. However, at no point did the Dealer retain title to the goods. The contract was very specific, they wanted the money not the handset. Should I rescind my contract with 3 the Dealer would require me to pay their subsidy of the full handset price - subtly, but significantly, different to what you was obligated to.

In both your case and mine, you would still be obligated to settle the outstanding monthly rental with the airtime provider. This is normal and nothing at all to do with the dealer.

Now let us look at my contract with Vodafone direct (no high street dealer involved). Their requirement is very simple. Should I wish to terminate my 18-month contract early then I have to pay the full balance owing on the Contract. There is no mention nor requirement for me to reimburse them with the cost of the Handset. Nor do Vodafone retain Title to the handset. Their contract is very clear and very specific, at all times they retain title to the SIM/USIM - that means during and beyond the contract. But, yet again for complete clarity, the company hold no and make no claim to title on the terminal equipment supplied as part of that contract.

All of this is proof, if any were needed, that you don't get something for nothing. The Dealer contracts, while often offering cheaper deals, do often have more punitive tie ins than the mobile network operators.

As always, the golden advice is Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware. Read your contracts very carefully before signing - take a copy home with you (this often bemuses the Dealer salesman) and return later with any questions or if you are truly ready to sign. Online deals usually have the contract posted somewhere on the website, make sure you read them term by term, skipping nothing. Particularly with the Dealers, if in doubt see if the Network Provider offers you something more understandable.

[cyberkid999]

What I was reffering to is the fact that with most contracts via dealers you cannot walk away from a contract early and expect to pay nothing back if you have had a phone for free. The other posts are inferring that the phone is 100% yours to keep and you can walk away no problems. This is incorrect and misleading info - yes you can keep the phone on some occasions but if you do you will have a bill of upto £400.....

[Hands0n]

The discussion on this thread relates to Title and Ownership of the handset, when does it pass on to you the customer. It is normally immediately upon receipt.

There are, clearly, two parts to this.
1) The airtime agreement - you cannot walk away, you will have to pay the airtime provider the remainder of the contracted months to discharge your obligation.

2) The handset - Title passes to you upon receipt, they do not want the handset back. The Dealer may contract you to pay the MNO's subsidy on the handset or, somewhat more cheekily, expect you to pay them the SIM-free price of the handset.

In any case, the handset is yours in title. You have merely contracted with the Dealer to pay an additional forefit. They won't come after you for the handset if you don't pay the money. They'll come after you for the money! As far as they are concerned, you own the handset. Note that this is a generalisation based on what I have seen in contracts to date. I typically do not do any business with the high street Dealers, preferring instead to do my business with the MNOs directly. So it may well be that dealers like CPW, P4U and The Link do in fact retain Title on the handset for the first six months. Which really does emphasise the point that you simply must ensure that you fully understand what you are obligating yourself to in contract with your Dealer.

[cyberkid999]

Note that this is a generalisation based on what I have seen in contracts to date. I typically do not do any business with the high street Dealers, preferring instead to do my business with the MNOs directly. So it may well be that dealers like CPW, P4U and The Link do in fact retain Title on the handset for the first six months. .


which was exactly my point. People come on here with generalisations and then when challenged they admit they dont know all the facts.....but in the meantime other people see these posts, made by moderators who will often be believed with no questions, and think they are correct.
perhaps next time you will make the fact known that you dont know everything instead of speaking like God.
I know about dealers as I had a contract with one. you dont but your posts read like you do...and now you have agreed with me - thank you, now wheres that humble pie....

[Ben]

There'll be plenty of humble pie here when I see some T&C's! I'm still not entirely clear on how one is supposed to cancel their airtime agreement without having to settle it in full. Obviously if the contract is cancelled within the cool-off period then the handset would have to be returned or paid-for, but outside of that and providing the contract is settled (or is terminated by the operator) surely it remains property of the consumer?

Still, interesting debate you guys are having all the same.

[cyberkid999]

10.2 If you enter the 3 Contract and subsequently move onto a lower tariff or bundle with few inclusive minutes or fail to fulfil your payment obligations during the Minimum Term or you end the 3 Contract for any reason within 6 months and the relevant tariff includes a subsidised handset, you must in addition to paying any other charges either:

10.2.1 return the Handset to us by sending it special delivery to the address in paragraph 10.1 at the same time as giving us and 3 written notice that you wish to end the 3 Contract; or

10.2.2 keep the Handset, in which case you agree to pay us the handset-only retail price (up to £400) being the purchase price (the "Purchase Price") of the Handset and you hereby authorise us to take the relevant Purchase Price from your nominated credit or debit card or through such other means as we may require in the event that the Handset is not return in accordance with paragraph 10.2.1 above.


Now who was it that said the handset is yours and the network is not interested in it, they just want money back.

quote from HandsOn
"2) The handset - Title passes to you upon receipt, they do not want the handset back. The Dealer may contract you to pay the MNO's subsidy on the handset or, somewhat more cheekily, expect you to pay them the SIM-free price of the handset.

In any case, the handset is yours in title. You have merely contracted with the Dealer to pay an additional forefit. They won't come after you for the handset if you don't pay the money. They'll come after you for the money! As far as they are concerned, you own the handset."

as I said...you are so wrong but you will probably edit this as yet again I am proving your statements wrong and misleading to the general readers of theis group who expect the moderators to speak the truth.
I have proved what I have said was correct and what you said was wrong. You have already admitted making generalisations so do the right thing and say you were mistaken and walk away instead of trying to show your are correct.
I made a comment you didnt like and you edited it. I have now proved I was correct beyond all doubt.

[cyberkid999]

Obviously if the contract is cancelled within the cool-off period then the handset would have to be returned or paid-for, but outside of that and providing the contract is settled (or is terminated by the operator) surely it remains property of the consumer?



No, this is incorrect. If you cancel within 6 months you have to return the handset or pay upto £400....

10.2 If you enter the 3 Contract and subsequently move onto a lower tariff or bundle with few inclusive minutes or fail to fulfil your payment obligations during the Minimum Term or you end the 3 Contract for any reason within 6 months and the relevant tariff includes a subsidised handset, you must in addition to paying any other charges either:

10.2.1 return the Handset to us by sending it special delivery to the address in paragraph 10.1 at the same time as giving us and 3 written notice that you wish to end the 3 Contract; or

10.2.2 keep the Handset, in which case you agree to pay us the handset-only retail price (up to £400) being the purchase price (the "Purchase Price") of the Handset and you hereby authorise us to take the relevant Purchase Price from your nominated credit or debit card or through such other means as we may require in the event that the Handset is not return in accordance with paragraph 10.2.1 above.

[Hands0n]

which was exactly my point. People come on here with generalisations and then when challenged they admit they dont know all the facts.....but in the meantime other people see these posts, made by moderators who will often be believed with no questions, and think they are correct.
perhaps next time you will make the fact known that you dont know everything instead of speaking like God.
I know about dealers as I had a contract with one. you dont but your posts read like you do...and now you have agreed with me - thank you, now wheres that humble pie....

Clearly I do know about dealers as my 3 contract is with one. Clearly also my contract with my dealer differs from yours. However, it may be unreasonable of you to expect me (or anyone else for that matter) to know about each and every single dealer in the nation and their specific contract terms. I expect that you are exactly the same in that respect.

It is only possible to speak from direct experience, I am sure you will concur. The whole idea of forums like Talk3G is for that experience to be shared. Each contributor putting forward their view based upon their own personal experiences. Visitors to Talk3G will be able to see a spread and balanced viewpoint and, if they read through an entire thread, see the broad set of experiences and variations in anything to do with 3G. As an example one could take the experience of using the 3 network. Some experience 100% satisfaction, others experience none at all. Who is right? Who is God? Neither of course. They are all correct, it is their individual experience and who is anyone to deny them that?

I think that it is disengeneous and quite impolite to make disparaging comments to other posters in this respect, and it is also not in keeping with this forum's AUP.

[Hands0n]

as I said...you are so wrong but you will probably edit this as yet again I am proving your statements wrong and misleading to the general readers of theis group who expect the moderators to speak the truth.
I have proved what I have said was correct and what you said was wrong. You have already admitted making generalisations so do the right thing and say you were mistaken and walk away instead of trying to show your are correct.
I made a comment you didnt like and you edited it. I have now proved I was correct beyond all doubt.

Personalisations will be removed from postings - and they will continue to do so as they can be inflammatory and are irrelevant.

Your posting backs up what has been said previously in this thread and that is to be aware that contracts will differ and that it is important to read through and understand what it is you are signing up to beforehand.

I fail to see a right and wrong in any of this (hence why I am not declaring you "wrong") and do not understand your very obvious pique. Your contract differs from the pair of mine in a manner that has been discussed above, so I will not re-address that in this post.

This is a discussion forum so lets discuss please and leave personalisations, bias and anxieties at the front door. There are plenty of other forums where one can have a jolly good old fashioned slanging match. Fortunately Talk3G is not one of those!

[Ben]

No, this is incorrect. If you cancel within 6 months you have to return the handset or pay upto £400....
Under your particular dealer contract, yes. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Who's T&C's are these again?

I guess they don't want the same thing happening as happened when Three changed their T&C's and many were able to invalidate their contracts and keep their handsets.

[cyberkid999]

Under your particular dealer contract, yes. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Who's T&C's are these again?

I guess they don't want the same thing happening as happened when Three changed their T&C's and many were able to invalidate their contracts and keep their handsets.


these are on the CPW website. these are the same terms that were in existance when many people cancelled due tro Three's price increase as I did.

[Ben]

That's interesting - did you end up having to pay for the handset? Or were you outside that golden 6 months? Or did they just not enforce the terms?

[cyberkid999]

Clearly I do know about dealers as my 3 contract is with one. Clearly also my contract with my dealer differs from yours.


just as I thought.... you made a statement with no clarifications and I pointed it out you were wrong and proved it so but you are still trying to go around the houses and fail to apologise - I dont care anyway.
I and many others know the feelings of this forum and the way it is moderated and how much bias is given by some mods who cant themselves be moderated. We all know about the 'problems' some people seem to have in the north and they make their view clear whenever they can by their constant slagging of the Three UK network. This has been well covered before so I wont go there again - I am just pointing out the facts that when a mod is corrected they dont have the manners to apologise and just edit others posts as they see fit.
I will continue to make posts as I see fit especially when people make widely inaccurate claims/statements ans I would expect them to accept these instead of trying to get out of it.
At least Ben has accepted what I said and thanked me for pointing it out but as for you (Mr HandsOn)....well let the readers decide if you dare!

[Hands0n]

I will leave your flamebait intact and agree with you to let the readers decide for themselves whether your approach to this discussion is fair and square.

[cyberkid999]

That's interesting - did you end up having to pay for the handset? Or were you outside that golden 6 months? Or did they just not enforce the terms?


luckily I was just outside the 6 months so I had the cashback right up untill then and kept the phone - all in all it cost me a few pounds and that was it. i still have my e2save contract running as it would be silly to cancel that at just £2.99 per month on TT600 with a free 6630...
.