[3GScottishUser]

Just a thought....

3 have good coverage of the UK population, 85% now but look at the coverage maps and huge areas of the country have no access to 3's UMTS network. GSM networks have vastly better coverage and that will remain the case for many years.

Thinking about the mobile Internet it struck me that 3 UK might have a major problem due to the above. The big 'IF' will be whether 3 UK provide roaming data access via 02 or another network. If they do then their new product could be very useful but if not it'll be hamstrung and pretty worthless. Think about when mobile Internet is most useful, its when you are not within reach of wired access and that is available in most of the populated areas that 3's UMTS already covers. Lets face it you aint gonna use the mobile Internet at home or at work if you have broadband available but it could be a great benefit on train or a bus etc travelling from one place to another. 3 would only be able to provide UMTS in really heavy built up areas and major routes, not in most of Scotland, vast areas of Wales and many parts of England where only GSM is available.

The big 4 have GPRS to fall back on and that is not a luxury, its a necessity to make their data products viable as a business tool. Retail customers will require a similar level of coverage to gain any benefit from a mobile Internet service.

So, if the new 3 data product is allied to roaming on another network that has GPRS Fallback then its a runner, if not its a lemon.

What do you think? Vote in the poll above and leave your coments.

[cyberkid999]

I travelled from South Yorkshire today right down to Norwich and only lost my 3G signal once so please dont judge everybody by your poor signal problems up north....some people have said that you only get good Three coverage in highly populated areas - whata load of c%$p. Check the route I have taken today through rural Lincolnshire and Norfolk and you will see there are very few such areas.

(Personalisation removed).

[3GScottishUser]

Hardly!!!

Just take a look at the current 3 coverage map and the extent of the problem is apparent. In Scotland 3 only have UMTS coverage in the Central Belt, Dundee, Aberdeen and along the M74 motorway. Hardly much use for data if you want Internet access on the move!!

The real question is will 3 make Internet access available in as many areas as they provide voice and SMS in. If they dont - they have have some real problems on the horizon.

[Ben]

I'm guessing there'd be no data handover anyway... so I voted Maybe. If the price point was right then I think they'd be a contender for data access simply because you're more likely to be in 3G coverage from 3 than you are to be in 3G coverage on any other network. So, for lines of work where large chunks of data need to be traded, there is an advantage to having greater coverage even if it means a GPRS backup has to be carried.

[bsrjl1]

Well it looks like 3 are testing their ISHO to O2 - open up Netmonitor and look at page 7.15 System Status: "Inter-sys HO 1". So it's enabled on the RNC & just needs target cells setting up. Probably quite a big job, but it's a step in the right direction.

Don't see any reason why they wouldn't handover packet data to O2, unless they use a different APN for internet? O2 have been doing extensive upgrades to their GPRS network to handle the extra traffic from 3, and it must make good money for them.

[3GScottishUser]

The above is interesting but fails to explain why the current range of 3's services are only available on their UMTS network. 02 only carry premium 'paid for' content. One would hope this would change to cover Internet access should it become available as an additional bundle.

[bsrjl1]

The premium content is 'small' - text, ringtones, images etc... Would you want to try to download a 3Mb music video over O2? It would take over 10 minutes!

I agree I'd like to see internet over O2 also.

[3GScottishUser]

I think I would like to see the news and other services via 02 also but as they are free they are restricted to UMTS areas. I must admit that news and weather are two of the things i use most on the move so its important that these have a decent geographic coverage.

[3g-g]

Well it looks like 3 are testing their ISHO to O2 - open up Netmonitor and look at page 7.15 System Status: "Inter-sys HO 1". So it's enabled on the RNC & just needs target cells setting up. Probably quite a big job, but it's a step in the right direction.

I just can't see how Three and O2 can achieve this. The whole fact of the matter is that authentication needs to take place for 3 handsets to roam on O2. That period of no coverage etc is that happening.. The authentication is occuring on two completely seperate HLRs, one belonging to O2 and the other 3, they are not interlinked, none of their network architecture is. The same goes for their SGSN and GGSN nodes, Three's IuCS / A interface and IuPS / Gb interface, which is necessary for 3G to 2G ISHO is nothing to do with O2's BSC/MSC/HLR connection... It's not just a case of setting up some target cells. If Three and O2 were using the same network architecture and equipment, would that not in a sense make them one network running two licences? How's that going to be regulated?

[Hands0n]

I voted "Maybe" - as I really would have to think about it carefully.

Not really so much as with their network coverage as it is almost 100% in my area of life and work. I rarely venture into 3's weaker areas of coverage, and have certainly not been up to Scotland for very many years (double figures iirc). So for me, 3's data over UMTS will in all liklihood be absolutely fine for me, if my voice & video experience of them is anything to go by.

No, my concerns relate to 3's remaining significant issues such as their Customer Service and Administration weaknesses. If I am to be a purchaser of 3's facilities for anything more than the casual non-business and personal use and then only as a secondary handset to my primary unit I need to be convinced that they can adequately back me up when I need them most. That is, when things go wrong. They have proved themselves to be woefully inadequate in that department since launch. My own experience to date is that they have not improved one jot. That, for me, is the biggest issue that will preoccupy my "consider it carefully" vote.

Bob Fuller take note, I am not alone.

[bsrjl1]

I just can't see how Three and O2 can achieve this. The whole fact of the matter is that authentication needs to take place for 3 handsets to roam on O2. That period of no coverage etc is that happening..

Have you not heard of Compressed Mode? It allows the handset time to go get measurements from 2G, location update & do all the other things during a call.


The authentication is occuring on two completely seperate HLRs, one belonging to O2 and the other 3, they are not interlinked, none of their network architecture is.

No the only HLR involved is 3's. Maybe you mean VLR? The authentication is between 3's HLR & O2's MSC/VLR, which are interlinked or else you wouldn't be able to location update on O2!

You do realise that 3 & O2 (& all the other operators!) have SS7 & traffic links?

[3g-g]

Have you not heard of Compressed Mode? It allows the handset time to go get measurements from 2G, location update & do all the other things during a call.

Yes, you're right, compressed mode allows the handset to check on the GSM status of things... if it's the same network and has passed the authentication requests required to be on the network, not that of a completely different one. It may be able to see a target GSM network but it can't hand into it, it's the same situation as when abroad. You may start a call on Vodafone 3G in France, and your handset can roam onto any network you choose there, but it can't hand into Orange France 2G... It's the same situation here.


No the only HLR involved is 3's. Maybe you mean VLR? The authentication is between 3's HLR & O2's MSC/VLR, which are interlinked or else you wouldn't be able to location update on O2!

You do realise that 3 & O2 (& all the other operators!) have SS7 & traffic links?

OK, so the only HLR involved is Three's as it's the home network, in the O2 case it's their VLR... But what you've said is correct and incorrect, yes, there's a link from Three's HLR to O2's VLR, but that's only some C7 over the network that interconnects them, in this case British Telecom. BT carry most of the operators, and loads of other operators traffic, it doesn't mean they have anything to do with each other. Finally, although they have a link, O2 do all the location updating for you when you're on their network, Three has nothing to do with you when on O2... O2 find out what you're SIM is allowed to do when you authenticate, it's stored on the VLR, and they then manage you from that point.

[Jon3G]

I travelled from South Yorkshire today right down to Norwich and only lost my 3G signal once so please dont judge everybody by your poor signal problems up north....some people have said that you only get good Three coverage in highly populated areas - whata load of c%$p. Check the route I have taken today through rural Lincolnshire and Norfolk and you will see there are very few such areas.

(Personalisation removed).


I know off subject, but were in Yorkshire you from?

[gorilla]

I voted 'of course'. I will get the £2.50 add on if and when it arrives. I have good 3g coverage in Belfast. I undersand the argument though about if it only works in UMTS areas. This would be frustrating, but I don't expect it to affect me to much.

[bsrjl1]

Yes, you're right, compressed mode allows the handset to check on the GSM status of things... if it's the same network and has passed the authentication requests required to be on the network, not that of a completely different one.

There's no requirement that it's the same network. The RNC passes details of the target cell adjacencies to the Ue. Try setting up an ADJG & it prompts you for the target cell MNC+MCC!


yes, there's a link from Three's HLR to O2's VLR, but that's only some C7 over the network that interconnects them, in this case British Telecom. BT carry most of the operators, and loads of other operators traffic, it doesn't mean they have anything to do with each other.

The networks have had direct inter-connects for a couple of years as it's cheaper than using BT. I know near Glasgow they just ran a few fibres from the O2 building to the Orange building. Meant digging up the pavement, but saved them both £££s.


Finally, although they have a link, O2 do all the location updating for you when you're on their network, Three has nothing to do with you when on O2... O2 find out what you're SIM is allowed to do when you authenticate, it's stored on the VLR, and they then manage you from that point.

In the case of 3-O2 ISHO, 3's MSC still anchors the call & O2's MSC/VLR gets passed your authentication data just like a normal handover. There is no need to re-authenticate onto O2.

I know what you're saying about roaming etc... I wouldn't expect ISHO to work from 3's 3G network to Orange's GSM, but 3's relationship with O2 is different.

You might want to look at the 3GPP documents about Inter PLMN handover/ISHO which explain all this very well.

[Ben]

Do we know if the handover has actually been achieved in any of Three's markets? I once read that Three's standard of W-CDMA pre-dates later modifications as Three was the first player to be out there building its network. One of these modifications is a seamless handover to GSM. Obviously, not owning it's own GSM network, Three might have settled for this in exchange for that good years advantage it got. If this were the case, I guess a seamlesss handover could be on the cards in future if a lot of upgrade work is done.

However, I don't think Three want a seamless handover full stop. They want you on Three, no compromises.

[bsrjl1]

Yes it has in the UK, but only as a trial in certain areas before being rolled out to all the country. Maybe initially there were some dirty hacks (still have to for early Motorolas & the NEC e606/808) which are a consequence of being first to market with imature handsets, but they're now 3GPP compliant. Standards are great, you can have so many of them ;-)

3 can get you back from O2 easily by specifying a low handover target - anything around -108dB will revert to 3G at the slightest sniff of a signal & keep their costs down.

[3g-g]

Well, if I had a hat I'd eat it just now.

I had a talk with a friend who works as a network enginner for Three about ISHO and other things, and yes, you can hand over from 3 UMTS -> O2 GSM, but not the other way... at the moment. In a 3G voice call after the ISHO there's no location update completed, so when the call ends your handset will try and location update on 3 and if there's no coverage it'll authenticate and attach to O2's MSC.

With this being the case it makes 3 a very interesting prospect for open data... If they have a Gp interface from their SGSN/GGSN then that could mean seamless data/GPRS transfers also.

Shock! :eek:

[Hands0n]

From a lay point of view that makes complete commercial sense from a 3 perspective. So they can keep the customer happy without dropped calls falling back to 2G and no need to fall forward to 3G until the call completes. Everyone's happy.

If that works for data also then they're set to deliver as seamless and continuous a service as the customer could reasonably expect of any radio service.

Cor :cool:

[Ben]

Has anyone managed to achieve a voice (for the moment) 3G-2G handover on Three? I've just been trying to get it to happen on my Threepay Z1010 but, even when I'm down to 0 bars of 3 signal, it's just not taking place. Whether it's a Threepay thing, or something to do with me using a Z1010, or something else, I have no idea.

Worth noting that the call didn't drop though, even with 0 bars! Just plenty of metallic noises and breaking up, but with 0 bars of signal that's not exactly a shocker.

[3GScottishUser]

AFAIK data handovers have never been an issue as they are packet switched. Its the circuit switched voice/video calling that means 3 - 02 handovers drop.

I expect Internet to be totally seamless even on 3 but will they have a roaming agreement to provide Internet access via 02's GPRS network, that is the issue.

[Hands0n]

Using my E1000 on Contract I have had a 3G handover to 2G without any loss of call. The call remained on 2G until I completed it when the handset then flipped back to 3G as I'd roamed back into coverage.

I observed that Threepay USIMs in an e606 did not allow fallback to 2G
- not sure if this was the phone's fault though. It steadfastly refused to connect to 2G and in fact the menu option in the handset was greyed out (but appeared when fitted with the Contract USIM).

[3GScottishUser]

Are you sure???

None of the 3 handsets can perform seamless voice switching as you have to register on 02 to make use of their signal and that takes time to achieve. Bear in mind voice and videocalls are circuit switched. No handset can broadcast on two different frequencies at the same time. The seamless transition is dependent on HLR registarion.

I would'nt trust handset indications 100%, signal meters are notoriously inaccurate and it's very possible other indicators may not be displaying 100% either.

[Ben]

As the technical boys have just been discussing, apparently provisions for a successful handover are in place. Great news if true.

Hands0n - My Threepay couldn't access 2G in the e606 either, but it does switch in the Z1010. Looks like I just couldn't get the signal strength low enough, though in bars you don't really get lower than 0! Shame I can't put the fieldtest software on there! I could always have a go in the 6680... hmm...

[getti]

I have also had handover on 3 with LG phones in the past. I was in a call when in 2G and then when i hung up it was on 3G.

[3GScottishUser]

I have also had handover on 3 with LG phones in the past. I was in a call when in 2G and then when i hung up it was on 3G.

Technically impossible..... A case of display misrepresentation I suspect.

[getti]

Back on topic about Mobile Web and Data. i have been told to check tonight/tomorrow morning and fingers crossed it will be working

[3GScottishUser]

I have read the date for the 'restricted access' mobile web might have been put back slightly. Expect something concrete by the end of the month though.

[getti]

I hear its out tomorrow

[3GScottishUser]

We shall see....

The 9th was certainly the date mentioned originally but it could have been pushed back.

[Hands0n]

Are you sure???

Yes, reasonably.

Anecdote: I was mobile at the time and approaching a local 3 blackspot (only ever get 2.5G there) and told my callee that we'd probably get cut off in a moment. As I entered the blackspot the call stayed in place. I pulled over and looked at the E1000's display and it had switched to 2.5G. I drove out and continued my journey. Before the call ended I pulled over and checked the display again, it was still on 2.5G. After I finished the call a few moments later the handset flipped back to 3G.

Now, I've read somewhere that the E1000 was the first capable of doing this (staying on 2G until the call finished before falling forward to 3G), and that certainly seems to be the case. I have to say that calls on it have always been very stable. I've not yet tried the same test with my 6680. I do recall getting disconnects on the NEC e606 where it was unable to fall-back without losing the call.

[getti]

News : 3 will begin briefing its key suppliers on its Christmas plans this week, detailing handsets, a range of tariffs and a new deal allowing access to the internet.


Full info at www.todayon3g.co.uk

[3GScottishUser]

Careful the above is a copyright article from Mobile Today.

It really should be credited to them.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/artman-test/publish/article_710.shtml

[Hands0n]

Prepay = "............. very radical" Well, it certainly needs to be, and not before time!

Possibly good news all round then. Its got my interest stirred so far - although £45 a month for 512MB leaves me very cold - but then again, I dont actually "need" such access really .......

[3GScottishUser]

Prediction:

The new 3 pre-pay model will be less restrictive but will force customers to spend on inclusive manadtory content and video.

Watch this space!!!

[bsrjl1]

Looks like it's virtually ready - see http://mobile.three.co.uk/pc/Live/pcreator/live/mwshp but you can't subscribe (yet!)

[getti]

Im getting a page cannot be found message

[bsrjl1]

Try going to http://www.google.co.uk/ then

[getti]

And searching for? Im getting this page from 3 Here (http://mobile.three.co.uk/threefiles/images/labelSiteMap.gif)

[bsrjl1]

Try going to Google on your 3 handset! See these shots also:

[ads]

If GPRS fallback is so important then why dont you join O2? They have full net access for no extra cost...

[a_ukboy]

It wont handover from 3g to 2g without dropping a call and vice vera with Three as it roams when logging onto o2, its something i believe they are looking into but i suspect its not a priority for Three as there own networks continues to grow!

[3GScottishUser]

Its an issue for voice calls as they are circuit switched but not for data as it's packet switched so there might be slight delay (which kills voicecalls) but that's not improtant for data. How long have you sometimes waited for a page to download using broadband?


The issue wont really affect the cheapie 100 sites Mobile Web WAP service but will be very important for most folks thinking about the £45 data bundle, they need GPRS to get the Internet in the 55% of the geographic area of the UK where 3 dont have UMTS coverage yet.

[@NickyColman]

I havent voted because the options arent really wide enough.

I would deffinately use Three's internet with no GPRS fallback because where i live, Sunderland Tyne & Wear, i have 100% 3G signal 24/7. Infact, i have better call results and quality than i actually get with Orange at the moment.

So for me i would deffinately use the Three Internet option!